Non-EU/EEC Students

[Rip]

Foreign students are net contributors to Finnish universities in many ways (and not just financial, but that too).

Based on what calculation?

Finnish universities have already started laying off staff in large numbers and a dramatic fall in the number of foreign students could exacerbate the situation, possibly causing whole faculties to close.

So do you consider Finnish government funding as a part of this "net contribution" by foreign students?

How about giving universities and UAS freedom to choose how much, if any, they will charge from non-EEA students - and also decree that they will get any public funding for those students. Should make this "net-contribution" thing reasonably clear soon enough.

[harryc]

Foreign students are net contributors to Finnish universities in many ways (and not just financial, but that too).

Finnish universities have already started laying off staff in large numbers and a dramatic fall in the number of foreign students could exacerbate the situation, possibly causing whole faculties to close.

Sorry - but can't think of how 'free' students are creating a net plus? Adding to the element of 'cosmopolitanism' - sure - an addition - but that doesn't mean we need to support children of American CEO's and bankers! Use the time-tested scholarships-based-on-need programs!

I'm a bit confused by the laying off staff matter - won't getting rid of these free-loaders actually aid in having the right amount of staff for Finnish students and their European colleagues?

[Rosamunda]

Sorry - but can't think of how 'free' students are creating a net plus? Adding to the element of 'cosmopolitanism' - sure - an addition - but that doesn't mean we need to support children of American CEO's and bankers!

Well maybe that's because you do not work/study in that environment. I have both studied and worked in Finnish Unis (and my kids are all students) so my opinions are based on my first-hand knowledge and experience. I have taught classes where a very significant portion of the students are non-EU and one of my kids has been studying engineering on a course where the majority of the students are Russian, Nepalese, Middle East etc.. If fees drive away these students, the standards will inevitably go down because there will be less competition for the same number of places. Alternatively, if the Unis (and I'm mainly referring to the UAS) choose to keep the standards high then it is likely that the in-take will drop and teachers will have to be laid off.

I'm a bit confused by the laying off staff matter - won't getting rid of these free-loaders actually aid in having the right amount of staff for Finnish students and their European colleagues?

You live in a dream world. Staff salaries are paid through government funding. Unis receive funding calculated on key metrics notably the number of students reaching 55 credits per year and the number of graduates (and to a lesser extent through academic publications and a couple of other metrics). So, FEWER students (whether they are what you call "free-riders" or not) just means LESS funding for the Unis. Foreign students generate income for the universities; they pay the salaries. And, due to the high cost of living in Finland and the difficulties foreign students encounter finding work, they are pretty motivated to graduate quickly. The unis really like that. They are less interested in students who plod through on 45 credits per year while working five days a week, taking six years to graduate.

I guess places like LUT have run several simulations with different "pricing" assumptions to work out how to fix the level of fees for their courses. I assume they have good reason to set the fees at around €10K p.a.. Wait and see. They are in competition with prestigious universities all over the world. What is their uniqueness? What factors can differentiate LUT from the rest, give value for money and justify the fees?

Offering EMI (English medium instruction) courses is one way of attracting foreign students and the main reason why so many Finnish universities have gone down this path. Internationalization is not a choice, it is a necessity if Finland is to be competitive. Ties with foreign universities are vital for staff and students alike and also for creating links and developing partnerships with foreign companies. It really is a no-brainer.

As for rich kids coming over and studying for free... I have met very few of those (I don't think Finland is the destination of choice for the super rich) and anyway, they would be spending their bucks here on rent, food, goods and services. That is what we mean by "net contributors". Foreign students (wherever they are from) buy goods and services, pay rent, etc while they are here. These revenues usually out-weigh any costs they have to society. There was a YLE article with some numbers on that a few months ago. If I find it I'll post it here (edit: below).

If we consider your assumption that reducing the numbers of foreign students would simply result in better student/teacher ratios for the Finnish and EU students, then essentially this means that the incremental cost of a non-EU student is zero (because the courses run anyway, even without them). Good question.... what is the incremental variable cost of one foreign student? Apart from some variable admin costs, I guess the rest are pretty much all fixed costs which are incurred regardless of whether the non-EU students are there or not.

And Querfeldein said (another good point) :

Attracting qualified, university-bound immigrants to your country is surely a net economic benefit - their entire upbringing, primary and secondary education was paid for by another country, and you get them right when they will become their most productive (and least costly for healthcare etc.).

And one more point. Charging fees also has a cost: the fees have to be invoiced and collected. And will the Unis offer student loans (private loans or government loans?) and who will administer those?


Edit: This is not the article I was looking for but it does give some numbers: http://yle.fi/uutiset/how_much_do_forei ... nd/7895687
suggesting that the incremental cost of a foreign student is €2300 p.a. I would hazard a guess that most foreign students put more than that into the Finnish economy every year whether they are on foreign study grants or not. And here is the report: http://www.cimo.fi/instancedata/prime_p ... b_2015.pdf

[harryc]

Except that I've never heard of Finnish education system being so popular among RICH KIDS.

Just follow the law - they CAN! And they don't need to be RICH RICH. Parents can be making 100-200K - and getting the kid here for 'free' can get them a Porsche.

The law should and was changed - just orient the system to allow funds for the NEEDY.

And you can be sure the Saudi Arabians don't need a PENNY of support! And with them paying, maybe some pensioner in Jakomäki can get some more KELA support in the next budget.

[harryc]

7000 Euros per year expenditure is much better than long-term unemployed or drunkard around the bus/train stations who takes from one hand and spends from another.

Hold the phone - are you saying that the alternative to the Railway Station trash is that they would go to a university --!!??

[Rosamunda]

I don't understand what you mean about non-EU students being counted as EU residents because they are here for more than three years. Don't think so.

I read it somewhere that if the non-EU/EEA person is more than 3 years in Finland who primarily came here not as student then they are exempted from the fees. For Instance, Non-EU/EEA spouse of A Finnish citizen who comes here to establish a family would be exempt from fees after 3 years of residence in Finland.

Yes, well that's kind of obvious. But I don't think it has much to do with charging fees to non-EU students. If they come here as NOT a student, then presumably they have individual means of support (eg a family member or a job).

[Rip]

but university student spends money in the state's economy without getting anything from the state

Only if the University isn't getting any money from the state for doing education work, which isn't true at all.

Now if those graduates chose to stay in the country then they'd contribute to the society positively and pay good tax (as it'd require good sum of income for them to get RP based on employment).

Exactly how much are they required to earn? Is a person anywhere near that income level truly a net contributor to the public finances? Counting of course a fair share of the general infrastructure costs as well and noting he'll be getting old and sick at some point.

A mail delivery guy does not make profit to the society - especially when we are not anywhere close to full employment.

[harryc]

Really, there is no point in comparison between the university students and a drunkard sniffing around train/bus stations....

Exactly - so they have ZERO correlation - so why bring it up?

Let there be a tuition charge - and students show they have a need for aid - could it be any simpler?

[Rosamunda]

It is a lot more complicated than that.

There are plenty of people who prefer to take the simplistic approach (after all, that's way easier than bothering to read and understand the data). But one reason why the majority of university staff OPPOSED the introduction of fees is the fear that they will lose their own jobs. Another is their concern that standards will drop. Another is the worry that opportunities for international cooperation and partnerships (eg in research projects) will evaporate. Which is, in turn, bad news for Finnish competitiveness in international trade and commerce. And the list goes on.

Every student who is charged a fee and then applies for a scholarship will generate a mass of paperwork and admin to determine his/her means. It's a can of worms. An administrative nightmare and ultimately I can see the costs of administering such a system eating into any incremental revenues that fees may generate.

And here's another interesting take on the situation (from the UK): http://www.theguardian.com/higher-educa ... hey-own-me

[harryc]

Every student who is charged a fee and then applies for a scholarship will generate a mass of paperwork and admin to determine his/her means.

According to that logic, we might as well cancel all the KELA eligibility requirements for social support, etc. And all the other eligibility programs - maybe Finland can copyright that and export the idea!

Improve the administration systems instead of throwing money out the window which includes my taxes.

There are 6 countries left with their pockets open for tuition - so the other 190 are idiots - yeah, right!

[Jukka Aho]

Related discussion initiated by non-EU/EEC students themselves:

http://www.helsinginuutiset.fi/artikkel ... rittaneita
http://www.hs.fi/mielipide/a1452308936322

The gist of the opinion piece:

• Leaving the country after studies has been made easier than staying here. (No-one seems to care.)
• Finland seems to love asylum seekers more than the foreigners who have come to study here and who have finished their studies here — that is, if comparing the processes which help getting a job or getting the paperwork (visas, permits etc.) handled and accepted. Especially so if the person who has studied here would genuinely want to stay and contribute to the society and make this their new home; create a career for themselves here. (Or what was the point of letting people study here anyway?) It is odd that those who have finished their studies in the Finnish system and gotten their degree are not encouraged to stay.
• Integration does not work well: there’s a sense of isolation and an “invisible wall” which prevents communication and it is difficult to get to know how the society works.
• The key to integration is learning the local language, and — according to the students themselves — this should be a requirement for getting social benefits. While integration should be easier, Finns should also demand more from those arriving here. It is not sufficient that only the 2nd or 3rd generation will be expected to integrate — this mistake made by many other countries should not be repeated here. The writers themselves will want to start integrating now.

[Rip]

But one reason why the majority of university staff OPPOSED the introduction of fees is the fear that they will lose their own jobs.

We'll that is pretty obvious, and that is the also an obvious reason why there are so many English language AMK programs in this country. The real question is if it makes sense from the point of view of those paying the bill (the state and tax payers).

[Rosamunda]

double post

[Rosamunda]

But one reason why the majority of university staff OPPOSED the introduction of fees is the fear that they will lose their own jobs.

We'll that is pretty obvious, and that is the also an obvious reason why there are so many English language AMK programs in this country. The real question is if it makes sense from the point of view of those paying the bill (the state and tax payers).

But my opinion is that yes, it does make sense to do this. Foreign students are subsidising the system financially (and culturally) and many of those programmes would not exist if it weren't for the foreign student enrolments. How could Finland ever hope to find export markets in Russia, China etc without building partnerships with students, universities and companies in those countries? Offering EMI courses is a worldwide trend. Holland and Finland are among the countries offering the most EMI courses but all European countries are increasing the number of courses taught in English (even France!)

I also believe that charging fees to foreign students will not generate any real incremental revenues for the education system - so no savings for the taxpayer. That rather simplistic assumption is flawed.

[Rosamunda]

Related discussion initiated by non-EU/EEC students themselves:

http://www.helsinginuutiset.fi/artikkel ... rittaneita
http://www.hs.fi/mielipide/a1452308936322

The gist of the opinion piece:

• Leaving the country after studies has been made easier than staying here. (No-one seems to care.)
• Finland seems to love asylum seekers more than the foreigners who have come to study here and who have finished their studies here — that is, if comparing the processes which help getting a job or getting the paperwork (visas, permits etc.) handled and accepted. Especially so if the person who has studied here would genuinely want to stay and contribute to the society and make this their new home; create a career for themselves here. (Or what was the point of letting people study here anyway?) It is odd that those who have finished their studies in the Finnish system and gotten their degree are not encouraged to stay.
• Integration does not work well: there’s a sense of isolation and an “invisible wall” which prevents communication and it is difficult to get to know how the society works.
• The key to integration is learning the local language, and — according to the students themselves — this should be a requirement for getting social benefits. While integration should be easier, Finns should also demand more from those arriving here. It is not sufficient that only the 2nd or 3rd generation will be expected to integrate — this mistake made by many other countries should not be repeated here. The writers themselves will want to start integrating now.

Interesting but somewhat anecdotal. There are a substantial number of non-EU AMK bachelors students who come here to take courses and learn skills that are not available in their home countries. Many of them know exactly what they are going to do when they graduate: return to their home country and set up a business, work in the public sector, work for NGOs, work in a family business, teach etc.. It is not the ambition of every non-EU student to stay here. (And yes, I don't see why they should have to pay fees either, and - as a taxpayer - it doesn't make me feel bitter that they get a free education.)

But there are some interesting issues raised. Particularly the notion that students who do wish to stay are not given the support they need to improve their language skills (especially Finnish - but even English too, which is kind of ironic) and feel abandoned at the end of their studies. So in that respect the letter is a nice wake-up call.