Non-EU/EEC Students

[Oho]

But there are some interesting issues raised. Particularly the notion that students who do wish to stay are not given the support they need to improve their language skills (especially Finnish - but even English too, which is kind of ironic) and feel abandoned at the end of their studies.

And how exactly is that different from the experiences of native born Finnish students at the end of their studies? There is a nifty three word question that puts most of this whining into perspective: Compared to what?

Here is another idea, why not wind down degree programs which do not lead to meaningful employment in Finland and consequently do not attract Finnish students who's parents in general terms bank roll the system? If the quality with diminishing resources is a concern why not cut admission and redundant programs? Hell that's what I'd do even even if it meant a few less Chinese mixing with other Chinese or Indians mixing with other Indians who also elected to come to Finland for tuition free degree.

Economic subsidy my aching ass when the result was conditioned on the assumption that foreign students are taught on the side and do not require any especially allocated resources.

[Rosamunda]

So which courses would you shut down?

One of the problems is anticipating exactly what skills will be required in Finland in the future. Another is attracting local students into those courses (eg construction engineering anyone?) If no Finns are interesting in studying mechanical engineering should we just cut those courses out? You think Finland doesn't need mechanical engineers (Kone... Fiskars... )?

Finland needs nurses, there are UAS courses available in nursing... there is still a shortage of nurses (a lot of the newly qualified Finnish nurses go and work abroad). How do you solve that one?

[harryc]

Tremendous amount of yakkety-yak here.

I really believe that education benefits are for taxpayers' communities. If charity is to be given it should be made according to NEED. Period!

If some American or Australian comes here free-loading tuition - they should come under a program where a Finnish student gets similar benefits in their country - will that happen? NO!

[harryc]

you'll understand how Free Education will benefit taxpayers' society more on the long run.

They didn't get half-way to reach first base - voodoo 'economics' for sure!

You can only make rules in your house, either for you or your visitor.... you cannot make rules in your neighbours' house how you should be treated when you visit them.

What on earth are you talking about? That is really NOT how the world works, The simplest of simple bilateral agreements mean benefits and regulations are mutual - extradition, tax treaties, etc. It doesn't need Trump's 'deals' to realize that and implement that.

Fortunately some people in the government realized it was 'time up' for the bloody free-loaders - so there are now only 6 of 200 countries to wake up!

[Oho]

If we'd think from your perspective then.... What exactly would NASA achieve sending rockets to Mars/Moon? Why Scientists are tracing the source of earlier human existence and even dinosaurs ?

What does space exploration or basic research in general got to do with competent but in no way remarkable degree students attending four year not at all research oriented program in a Finnish UAS or a research university for that matter? Anyway I gather the law of diminishing returns already has a death grip on the balls of the Finnish education system, certainly as far as prevalence of higher education is concerned. I am a living proof of that.

[Rip]

How could Finland ever hope to find export markets in Russia, China etc without building partnerships with students, universities and companies in those countries?

We have had actually exports and partnerships with both those countries for a long time. I am not against offering scholarships for reasonable amount actually talented students.

I also believe that charging fees to foreign students will not generate any real incremental revenues for the education system - so no savings for the taxpayer

If it helps to cut out useless courses, that is savings.

[harryc]

Why Scientists are tracing the source of earlier human existence and even dinosaurs ?

What are you talking about? This discussion is about providing aid for students in need - or that is what was intended.

I think of myself as a scientist if anything. I should also - respecting full disclosure - tell that I went through 4 years of a private A-1 engineering school for the total cost of 48 dollars for power and materials - and then 5 years tuition-free through to a doctorate at a top university - and got PAID extra for housing and food, etc. It was all through scholarships.

So there are ways for those deemed capable and of need. Science need not suffer.

[Rip]

So which courses would you shut down?

English language courses in university of Nowheremäki that can only filled because it is free, comes with a Schengen RP attached and the entry qualifications are low enough would be at a top of the list. A study of how many of former students are actually employed a few years after graduating (and with a pay of what size) would also be interesting.

You think Finland doesn't need mechanical engineers (Kone... Fiskars... )?

Has Aalto been unable to reasonably fill its bachelor level courses lately?

Finland needs nurses, there are UAS courses available in nursing... there is still a shortage of nurses (a lot of the newly qualified Finnish nurses go and work abroad).

Obviously we don't really lack nurses then, but the willingness or ability to pay for them.

[Beep_Boop]

and then 5 years tuition-free through to a doctorate at a top university

Which field of science?

[harryc]

Environmental Health Sciences/Public Health/Natural Resources

[harryc]

The important factor of need very much missing from the above presentation.

Why shouldn't government-paid university tuition for non-EU people be predicated on need?

[biscayne]

I had to think should I comment on this thread or not as I am currently studying and therefore benefiting from the "system".

Having said that, I do find it strange that the public in general have not kicked up about this. I took the place because I felt that keeping myself busy while learning Finnish and jobseeking was the best way to integrate (or re-integrate in my case...), but, I would have been willing to pay a fee. It really does seem to be some kind of foreign aid in a way. Funny thing is, that the people in my class from the developing countries seem to be wealthy enough, it is the American who was delighted to find a way to get a masters without being 150k in debt as she would be in the US, but she may have to go home as she did not find work (I suspect the required amount of money you have to show was just "resting" in her account and went out quite soon after the student permit was granted).

Based on what I am seeing around me, I honestly feel there is little benefit to Finland from these courses. Few of the graduates are in Finland 5 years after graduation. Reasons for this include: not finding work in the field, lack of language skills, finding better paid work elsewhere, never planned to stay after graduation. My course for example has had no foreigners who graduated from it who found work outside academia, in Finland, since the course started. The only exceptions are nurses who did the masters I am doing and went back into nursing.

Finally, I agree that the reason the Universities are against the fees is because Lecturers are afraid they will lose their jobs. If you pay, you have a say......And while I know this is a subjective opinion, I have studied in Ireland, USA, Australia and the Finnish lecturers I have here are the absolute worst I have ever experienced. They would not last a second in for example, the University of Sydney where students pay big fees. They come in, read off their slides, mumble in a monotone and do not engage the class in anyway. It is laughable. The system is nonsense, only the exam counts, you do a lot of assignments etc. but only the grade for the exam ends up as your grade, most universities nowadays combine grades for assignments, groupwork, papers etc. with exam grades to give people a fairer chance to get a good grade. Some people do well in exams, some are better at assignments.

I left the house in Espoo at 5.30 in the morning 4 days a week to attend an early Problem Based Learning groupwork course - real baby stuff, but anyway. Half the people did not attend, half the people who attended did not do the work for the next week, it was always the same few "solving the problem". People just studied, did the exam, end of story. I asked straight out what was it all for, what was the point and were there sanctions for those who did not turn up or did not work, was it really just about the exam? Answer - yes. The programme and lectures are so bad I've applied to transfer to the same course in Dublin, I'll have to pay but I don't care.

[harryc]

I had to think should I comment on this thread or not as I am currently studying and therefore benefiting from the "system".

Having said that, I do find it strange that the public in general have not kicked up about this. I took the place because I felt that keeping myself busy while learning Finnish and jobseeking was the best way to integrate (or re-integrate in my case...), but, I would have been willing to pay a fee. It really does seem to be some kind of foreign aid in a way. Funny thing is, that the people in my class from the developing countries seem to be wealthy enough, it is the American who was delighted to find a way to get a masters without being 150k in debt as she would be in the US, but she may have to go home as she did not find work (I suspect the required amount of money you have to show was just "resting" in her account and went out quite soon after the student permit was granted).

Based on what I am seeing around me, I honestly feel there is little benefit to Finland from these courses. Few of the graduates are in Finland 5 years after graduation. Reasons for this include: not finding work in the field, lack of language skills, finding better paid work elsewhere, never planned to stay after graduation. My course for example has had no foreigners who graduated from it who found work outside academia, in Finland, since the course started. The only exceptions are nurses who did the masters I am doing and went back into nursing.

Finally, I agree that the reason the Universities are against the fees is because Lecturers are afraid they will lose their jobs. If you pay, you have a say......And while I know this is a subjective opinion, I have studied in Ireland, USA, Australia and the Finnish lecturers I have here are the absolute worst I have ever experienced. They would not last a second in for example, the University of Sydney where students pay big fees. They come in, read off their slides, mumble in a monotone and do not engage the class in anyway. It is laughable. The system is nonsense, only the exam counts, you do a lot of assignments etc. but only the grade for the exam ends up as your grade, most universities nowadays combine grades for assignments, groupwork, papers etc. with exam grades to give people a fairer chance to get a good grade. Some people do well in exams, some are better at assignments.

I left the house in Espoo at 5.30 in the morning 4 days a week to attend an early Problem Based Learning groupwork course - real baby stuff, but anyway. Half the people did not attend, half the people who attended did not do the work for the next week, it was always the same few "solving the problem". People just studied, did the exam, end of story. I asked straight out what was it all for, what was the point and were there sanctions for those who did not turn up or did not work, was it really just about the exam? Answer - yes. The programme and lectures are so bad I've applied to transfer to the same course in Dublin, I'll have to pay but I don't care.

Amen.

[Oho]

can you even guess what profession would be in demand in next 10 years?

At this rate? Undertakers.

[harryc]

harryc wrote:
Why shouldn't government-paid university tuition for non-EU people be predicated on need?

How to find out what is the need? can you even guess what profession would be in demand in next 10 years?

Maybe you were being facetious - maybe not. Anyhow the 'need' I meant was 'financial need' on the part of the students.