800 every citizen of Finland?

[simon1]

Hey guys, what do you think about the new idea for 800 euros absolute income for every citizen of Finland?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 62226.html

[betelgeuse]

Overall, I see more positive than negative in this move for the citizens, for foreigners like me fu.cking sour grapes.

I don't think it's going to be citizen only. It would be hard to find justifications for that and you would need to maintain separate taxation systems.

[Oho]

Overall, I see more positive than negative in this move for the citizens, for foreigners like me fu.cking sour grapes.

I don't think it's going to be citizen only. It would be hard to find justifications for that and you would need to maintain separate taxation systems.

Indeed, it is every resident eligible to welfare but its not gonna happen, well scrapping of other forms of welfare is not going to happen. For starters flat in Helsinki these days seem tantamount to positive right and the proposed level is not enough to cover the cost.

[Marsh04]

Social office will still be available for people who need additional help.

But I think everybody won't receive 800 euros. If a person gets 2000 euros salary, he'll not start getting 2800. I don't know how are they going to implement this system.

[Oho]

Social office will still be available for people who need additional help.

But I think everybody won't receive 800 euros. If a person gets 2000 euros salary, he'll not start getting 2800. I don't know how are they going to implement this system.

And that's where it goes pear shaped... i.e the 800 would just end up going on top of all existing forms of welfare. Actually I am all for it, it would nicely speedup the bankruptcy and economic collapse the country is headed for anyway, I would call it euthanasia.....

And yes if you make 2000 after the proposal you would make 2800, but bulk of it would be taxed away and you would never see one red cent of it....

[Rip]

At the moment there is still only some preliminary idea to run a trial on the system (with some random test population). Most likely it would seem to have the following basic parameters: Amount: (about) 550 € month. It would not replace the current housing benefit. Also formally the "toimeentulotuki" would co-exist, although the idea is that it would make most getting it now ineligible as they would get sufficient income without 'sossu'. Those that are earning a reasonable good salary (or more) should expect the tax rates be adjusted to correspond about +/- zero. In general foreigners resident here would be treated as citizens, but I would not expect them make foreign (or domestic) students happy even in the trial, so presumably they'd be taken of the target population.

[betelgeuse]

Aside from justification, the tax system is pretty clear if the amount is unconditional. The Finn who earns 2000 euros per month will pay the tax of his 2000 earnings and other cuts accordingly and will receive 800 on top of his net income. lets assume a Finn earning 2000 had his net income of 1600 per month and now this unconditional money would make his net 1600 + 800 = 2400. The foreigner who earns same amount of money and pays same tax will have net income 1600 unlike 2400 the Finn would get.

If the amount is unconditional I don't see the need of tax adjustment on it.

You make the assumption that the 800 is not taxable. The system can't pay itself unless we tax away the unconditional money from median earners. This means much higher marginal tax rates than currently. If foreigners didn't receive the unconditional money and had the same marginal tax rates, they would make far less than 1600 net. My comment was an implicit reference to equality before law under the Finnish constitution. I don't think it would fly in the constitution committee to treat two permanent workers differently for basic income solely based on citizenship.

[Rip]

but in the article posted above

I thought it was clear enough the article is trash, so let's stop discussing it.

This means much higher marginal tax rates than currently.

The marginal tax for most wage earners would be very close to what they are now. The nominal tax rates for the whole income would be higher. The effective (taking into account means testing of benefits) marginal tax rates at low incomes should mostly decrease (the main purpose of the whole exercise as the effective marginal tax rates there are now often at or above 100%.)

Definitely most (not sure how they would handle even students that are citizens) resident foreigners would get the same as citizens.

[betelgeuse]

The marginal tax for most wage earners would be very close to what they are now. The nominal tax rates for the whole income would be higher. The effective (taking into account means testing of benefits) marginal tax rates at low incomes should mostly decrease (the main purpose of the whole exercise as the effective marginal tax rates there are now often at or above 100%.)

I was only talking about the 2000 euro earners. It's clear marginal tax rates go lower for low incomes. However, I do stand corrected for the 2000 euro earner in that I should have talked about nominal tax rates. I became interested in the actual rates in potential models and found the following from the 2008 model from greens in comparison to current situation (the 2000 euro earner):

Currently marginal tax rate is about 40%.

https://www.veronmaksajat.fi/luvut/Lask ... prosentit/

The green model is 44% which is indeed pretty close.

"Perustulonsuuruudeksi esitettiin 440 €/kk ja veroprosentiksi 44 % (39 % veroa ja 5 % sosiaaliturvamaksuja) paitsi 60 000 ylittävistä tuloista 54 %."

Worth noting is that the level if basic income is much lower than 800 at 440.

https://www.vihreat.fi/vihrea-perustulo ... -se-maksaa