residence permit card for permanent resident

[mshamber]

This is relevant for the people who have the residence permit sticker in their passport and then need to get a residence permit card after their passport expires.

I am a permanent resident and started this process a couple of weeks ago (75 euro for the application and 20 euro for my pictures). The police sent me a letter with questions and I am pretty annoyed since I thought I was free and clear of future dealings with immigration.

They ask about a gap in my passport but I don't understand why they even ask the question. There are specific criteria that would allow them to revoke permanent residence and a gap in passport is not one of them. I wonder if there is some reason they can deny a residence permit card to a permanent resident? And does not having a card affect travel since I still have the sticker in my old passport and they likely have a database available at the airport.

The question about being in the country for last 5 years seems fair to me but then why don't they just include it in the application form?

Anyway, I will call them and see what information I can get. Not sure if I will ever get through on their phone number. Tried once already and waited 10 minutes before giving up.

Letter below.
----------------------

You are kindly requested under articles 22,32 and 33 of the Act on Administrative Procedure to add the following information to your application:

- There seems to be a gap between your previous and your current US passports. Your previous passport expired in January 2015 and your current passport was issued in September 2015. We would like to know when you applied for the new US passport. We would also like to know where you applied for this passport (US or the US embassy of Finland). If you applied for this passport after your previous one expired, please write a short explanation why you did not apply for the new one in time. If possible, please present some documents to support your claim, for instance, payment receipts from the Embassy.
- We would like to know whether you have been residing in Finland permanently during the years 2011-2016. If you have lived abroad for long periods, please clarify how long.

Please send the information within 2 weeks from the date of this letter. The matter may be decided whether the applicant complies with the stipulated time or not. You should note, however, that the lack of information requested may be to your disadvantage.

------------------------

[Upphew]

This is relevant for the people who have the residence permit sticker in their passport and then need to get a residence permit card after their passport expires.

I am a permanent resident and started this process a couple of weeks ago (75 euro for the application and 20 euro for my pictures). The police sent me a letter with questions and I am pretty annoyed since I thought I was free and clear of future dealings with immigration.

They ask about a gap in my passport but I don't understand why they even ask the question. There are specific criteria that would allow them to revoke permanent residence and a gap in passport is not one of them. I wonder if there is some reason they can deny a residence permit card to a permanent resident? And does not having a card affect travel since I still have the sticker in my old passport and they likely have a database available at the airport.

The question about being in the country for last 5 years seems fair to me but then why don't they just include it in the application form?

Anyway, I will call them and see what information I can get. Not sure if I will ever get through on their phone number. Tried once already and waited 10 minutes before giving up.

Letter below.
----------------------

You are kindly requested under articles 22,32 and 33 of the Act on Administrative Procedure to add the following information to your application:

- There seems to be a gap between your previous and your current US passports. Your previous passport expired in January 2015 and your current passport was issued in September 2015. We would like to know when you applied for the new US passport. We would also like to know where you applied for this passport (US or the US embassy of Finland). If you applied for this passport after your previous one expired, please write a short explanation why you did not apply for the new one in time. If possible, please present some documents to support your claim, for instance, payment receipts from the Embassy.
- We would like to know whether you have been residing in Finland permanently during the years 2011-2016. If you have lived abroad for long periods, please clarify how long.

Please send the information within 2 weeks from the date of this letter. The matter may be decided whether the applicant complies with the stipulated time or not. You should note, however, that the lack of information requested may be to your disadvantage.

------------------------

Aliens Act, chapter 2, section 13. http://finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokset/2004/en20040301.pdf

(1) When entering and staying in Finland, aliens shall hold a valid passport issued by the authorities of their home country or country of residence, which shall be presented to border control authorities or the police upon request.

That has been amended to say travel document instead of passport though. Do you have some other valid travel document than passport?

[mshamber]

>> Do you have some other valid travel document than passport?

I have had a valid passport since September 2015. I made the application for the resident permit card with my valid passport. I am wondering why they are asking about the passport gap from January 2015 to September 2015. Could the answer really have an effect on the outcome for a permanent resident?

[Upphew]

>> Do you have some other valid travel document than passport?

I have had a valid passport since September 2015. I made the application for the resident permit card with my valid passport. I am wondering why they are asking about the passport gap from January 2015 to September 2015. Could the answer really have an effect on the outcome for a permanent resident?

Effect on P RP? Most likely not. Effect on fines for staying without having valid documents? Most likely.

[mshamber]

It does seem like a fishing expedition. If the passport was applied for before the other expired and then took a long time then it not the fault of the applicant. If there was a gap due to laziness/forgetfulness then it goes against the alien law that requires an alien to have proper documents while in country. It would make sense that they can give a fine for that though so far I cannot find how much it would be. It would be interesting what would happen if someone in this situation "could not remember" whether they applied in time or not. Would the police be able to compel them to provide proof of their innocence or guilt?

I am going on a trip out of EU in July so not replying to their letter will delay my application by at least 2 weeks and the likely result is that I will not have my new card before I leave. I have to find out what will happen if I try to re-enter with both new and expired passport with the PR sticker in it.

[Upphew]

It does seem like a fishing expedition. If the passport was applied for before the other expired and then took a long time then it not the fault of the applicant. If there was a gap due to laziness/forgetfulness then it goes against the alien law that requires an alien to have proper documents while in country. It would make sense that they can give a fine for that though so far I cannot find how much it would be. It would be interesting what would happen if someone in this situation "could not remember" whether they applied in time or not. Would the police be able to compel them to provide proof of their innocence or guilt?

I am going on a trip out of EU in July so not replying to their letter will delay my application by at least 2 weeks and the likely result is that I will not have my new card before I leave. I have to find out what will happen if I try to re-enter with both new and expired passport with the PR sticker in it.

Prosecutor would have proof of guilt as there would be gap between dates of passports. Defendant might be found not guilty if s/he could show that it was the paper pushers that effed up.

[betelgeuse]

Effect on P RP? Most likely not. Effect on fines for staying without having valid documents? Most likely.

Where does the Aliens Act (or other legislation) require you to always have valid documents? Your earlier quote only concerned crossing the border.

[mshamber]

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/kaannokset ... 040301.pdf

"When entering and staying in
Finland, aliens shall hold a valid passport
issued by the authorities of their home
country or country of residence, which shall
be presented to border control authorities or
the police upon request. "

I filed an administrative complaint now with migri saying that the requester unlawfully invoked article 22 to request more information about my application which has now delayed it. I said my passport status in 2015 was not relevant to a permanent resident applying for a permanent resident card. I also said the tone of the letter was threatening. I would have told them that over the phone but I have a feeling they never answer it or have so few operators the result is the same.

[Upphew]

Effect on P RP? Most likely not. Effect on fines for staying without having valid documents? Most likely.

Where does the Aliens Act (or other legislation) require you to always have valid documents? Your earlier quote only concerned crossing the border.

Nah, it concerns crossing _and_ staying. Also 185 § mentions need to have a travel document. It also mentions that ulkomaalaisrikkomus needs to be done on purpose, so most likely op will not get even fines.

"Ulkomaalaisella on maahan saapuessaan ja maassa oleskellessaan oltava koti- tai oleskelumaansa viranomaisen antama voimassa oleva passi, joka hänen on vaadittaessa esitettävä rajatarkastusviranomaiselle tai poliisille."

edit. it -> ulkomaalaisrikkomus

[Upphew]

I filed an administrative complaint now with migri saying that the requester unlawfully invoked article 22 to request more information about my application which has now delayed it. I said my passport status in 2015 was not relevant to a permanent resident applying for a permanent resident card. I also said the tone of the letter was threatening. I would have told them that over the phone but I have a feeling they never answer it or have so few operators the result is the same.

Administrative complaints are handled by administrative court? Iirc they take a year to get to a decision. You might, or might not, get the card before they say anything.

[mshamber]

http://www.migri.fi/services/administrative_complaint. I sent an email with a pdf attachment.

It seems like a common sense process handled by some staffers at migri. I'm more interested in what my rights are as a permanent resident. I feel that I went through the process already and don't need to answer any more questions. Permanent is permanent and as long as I don't do anything listed in the criteria for revoking a permanent residence then I should not have to respond to additional examination.

On what grounds do you find the official's conduct wrongful?

Invoking article 22 to ask about passport status in 2015. Passport status in 2015 is not relevant to my application for resident permit card. I also don't understand why she needs to ask about the 2011-2016 period. Why is that not on the application? This is causing a delay to the processing of my application. The tone of the letter is threatening. I am a lawful permanent resident and this letter makes me feel like that could be taken away from me even that I have reviewed the criteria for revoking permanent residence.

[betelgeuse]

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/kaannokset ... 040301.pdf

"When entering and staying in
Finland, aliens shall hold a valid passport
issued by the authorities of their home
country or country of residence, which shall
be presented to border control authorities or
the police upon request. "

I filed an administrative complaint now with migri saying that the requester unlawfully invoked article 22 to request more information about my application which has now delayed it. I said my passport status in 2015 was not relevant to a permanent resident applying for a permanent resident card. I also said the tone of the letter was threatening. I would have told them that over the phone but I have a feeling they never answer it or have so few operators the result is the same.

If the police has jurisdiction in the matter, then a complaint to migri is futile. Migri does not oversee the police. The parliamentary ombudsman would be a better place.

http://www.oikeusasiamies.fi/Resource.p ... /index.htx

It seems to me they are justified in asking information because you are supposed to apply for the card without delay when your passport that had the sticker expired. Basically were supposed to hand in the application in 2015 instead of couple weeks ago.

Oleskeluluvan haltijan on haettava oleskelulupakorttia viivytyksettä sen jälkeen, kun hänen matkustusasiakirjansa, jossa on merkintä edelleen voimassa olevasta oleskeluluvasta, voimassaolo on päättynyt.

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2 ... 301#L4P60g

[betelgeuse]

Administrative complaints are handled by administrative court? Iirc they take a year to get to a decision. You might, or might not, get the card before they say anything.

The Finnish term for what he is doing is hallintokantelu. Those are not handled by administrative courts.

Kantelulla tarkoitetaan ylemmälle viranomaiselle (tai nimenomaisen säännöksen perusteella kanteluita tutkivalle viranomaiselle) tehtyä ilmoitusta tai ilmiantoa virheellisestä menettelystä tai laiminlyönnistä. Viranomainen voi kanteluun perehdyttyään antaa hallinnollista ohjausta sille taholle, jonka toiminnasta kantelussa on kyse.

https://www.avi.fi/web/avi/kantelu1#.V1AwEGP-tgY

Where does the Aliens Act (or other legislation) require you to always have valid documents? Your earlier quote only concerned crossing the border.

Nah, it concerns crossing _and_ staying. Also 185 § mentions need to have a travel document. It also mentions that ulkomaalaisrikkomus needs to be done on purpose, so most likely op will not get even fines.

Yeah missed that. Thanks.

[mshamber]

>> It seems to me they are justified in asking information because you are supposed to apply for the card without delay when your passport that had the sticker expired. Basically were supposed to hand in the application in 2015 instead of couple weeks ago.

Oh well. I guess I will just reply with the truth. The complaint made me feel better though.

[mshamber]

So after I replied to the police I received the result of my permanent resident card application which was positive. The card is good for five years and then I have to pay 80 euros again + 20 euros for pictures and queue in the lines.

They also gave me 8 days fines (352 euro) for not having a valid passport during an 8 month period in 2015. They said they usually give more day fines but they were showing mercy due to my above average income. The fine was based on Ulkomaalaislaki 13:

185 §
Ulkomaalaisrikkomus
Ulkomaalainen, joka
1) tahallaan oleskelee maassa ilman vaadittavaa matkustusasiakirjaa, viisumia tai oleskelulupaa,
2) tahallaan oikeudetta tekee ansiotyötä tai harjoittaa elinkeinoa, taikka
3) tahallaan tai törkeästä huolimattomuudesta jättää noudattamatta 118 §:n nojalla määrätyn ilmoittautumisvelvollisuuden, 119 §:n nojalla määrätyn muun velvollisuuden tai 130 §:n nojalla annetun kutsun saapua antamaan tietoja oleskelustaan,
on tuomittava ulkomaalaisrikkomuksesta sakkoon.
Ulkomaalaisrikkomuksesta tuomitaan myös se, joka tahallaan tai törkeästä huolimattomuudesta laiminlyö 174 tai 175 §:ssä säädetyn velvollisuutensa.

I asked if I could go to prison instead but they said no since it was a police fine and not one given by the courts. She did tell me for this amount of fine from the courts it would be 2 days in prison. I am considering some type of civil disobedience but fear the collection agencies more then sitting in prison.