Direct Electrical heating.

nahijan · Post by **nahijan** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:30 pm

Hello Everybody

We have recently bought a Rivitalo where we have a Direct Electrical Heating system. Now, as you know it is a bit more expensive than regular District Heating. Our house is not that big so we are planning to take all the steps necessary to keep our Electricity cost down especially in the Winter. Now I have some question.

So is it possible to use any Smart Thermostat system like Nest in Finland to control the heating system?

Also The house is 53 m2. We have bought pretty much all our appliances Energy Star (A+++). Can you guyz suggest me some ideas by which I can keep the Electricity cost minimized? Btw, the Electricity provided is Fortum

Thanks in advance

Have a nice day

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DMC · Post by **DMC** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:02 pm

Which Fortum tariff are you on? They offer a tariff where the price you pay for electricity is a fixed markup over and above the wholesale market price. This price is lower off peak, so it can save you money if you can move your power usage to off peak times. For example, set your washing machine going when you go to bed, heat your water and the house mainly at night and so on.

riku2 · Post by **riku2** » Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:39 am

I'm not sure a Nest type thermostat is that good for Finland. It works by learning when you are home and turning down/off the heating when you are out - english style. In Finland the heating tends to be on all the time and the houses are far better insulated so the heat isn't lost (my relatives visiting from England are shocked that the heating is on 24h/day !!). If you install a Nest it will turn off the heating but I doubt you'll save much especially if your house is a rivitalo and has one/more neighbors and so losses through the party walls are negligible.

betelgeuse · Post by **betelgeuse** » Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:45 pm

nahijan wrote:Can you guyz suggest me some ideas by which I can keep the Electricity cost minimized? Btw, the Electricity provided is Fortum

The housing company is in the best place to influence the costs. You could for example investigate the viability of moving from direct electrical to geothermal heating. You should get in talks with the manager and bring saving up in energy in ordinary general meetings.

JukkaM · Post by **JukkaM** » Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:00 am

When heating with electricity, there are two dominating factors that determine total consumption.

1. Space heating.
As you need heating about 2/3rds of year, and all electricity consumed by lightning, refrigerator, various electronics etc. turns eventually into heat, the total consumption is practically dictated by heating needed. As a rule of thumb, lowering room temperature by 1 degree (centigrade) shaves 5% off from need of heating energy. As there is significant delay in temperature changes after switching heating on/off I wouldn't recommend any _major_ day cycle changes in room temperature.

In electrically heated apartment on sub-arctic area, total savings from modern low-energy home appliances are not as high as in warmer regions.

2. Warm water consumption.
All warm water consumed has once been heated in your boiler. Shorter and colder the shower, smaller the bill. Every liter of 30-degree water running from the tap has taken 0,3c (old calculation with old prices, in range anyway) worth of electricity...

-Jukka

Oho · Post by **Oho** » Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:33 am

betelgeuse wrote: The housing company is in the best place to influence the costs. You could for example investigate the viability of moving from direct electrical to geothermal heating.

No kidding, the investment would offset the electricity bill conceivably for decades given how they would need to install not only the geothermal stuff but all the water central heating stuff as well with pumps, radiators or hot water piping under the floors and what not.

I would go for air-to-air heat pump, at circa 1000€ installed a pop it can earn its price in matter of few years. I would not worry about it too much anyway. I still have a 170 square meter house with direct electric heating with annual consumption at about 17000 kWh.

betelgeuse · Post by **betelgeuse** » Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:58 am

Oho wrote: No kidding, the investment would offset the electricity bill conceivably for decades given how they would need to install not only the geothermal stuff but all the water central heating stuff as well with pumps, radiators or hot water piping under the floors and what not.

http://st1maalampo.fi/maalampo/sahkolammitys/

From what I have heard installing water heating is not as big a factor as you would think.

Oho wrote: I would go for air-to-air heat pump, at circa 1000€ installed a pop it can earn its price in matter of few years. I would not worry about it too much anyway. I still have a 170 square meter house with direct electric heating with annual consumption at about 17000 kWh.

It depends on the time span one looks at things. I do agree that if you have a modern energy efficient place, the consumption can be so low to begin with that geothermal energy takes a long time to pay off. I assume this is not the case for the OP since they wouldn't be asking in the first place.

Upphew · Post by **Upphew** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:27 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Oho wrote: No kidding, the investment would offset the electricity bill conceivably for decades given how they would need to install not only the geothermal stuff but all the water central heating stuff as well with pumps, radiators or hot water piping under the floors and what not.
http://st1maalampo.fi/maalampo/sahkolammitys/

From what I have heard installing water heating is not as big a factor as you would think.

Quick googling: 25-40€/m2. +removal of old floors. +new floors.

edit. you need to empty the house, so place to live, place to store belongings (and haul them around), cabinets must go too... it all adds up. Might be worth you you are going to do renovation anyway. Just for the floor heating... I would certainly skip it.

betelgeuse · Post by **betelgeuse** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:27 pm

Upphew wrote: Quick googling: 25-40€/m2. +removal of old floors. +new floors.

edit. you need to empty the house, so place to live, place to store belongings (and haul them around), cabinets must go too... it all adds up. Might be worth you you are going to do renovation anyway. Just for the floor heating... I would certainly skip it.

Water heating != floor heating. Could do "old fashioned" heaters with surface installations of the heating pipes. It is less efficient for the heat pumps though.

Upphew · Post by **Upphew** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:08 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Upphew wrote: Quick googling: 25-40€/m2. +removal of old floors. +new floors.

edit. you need to empty the house, so place to live, place to store belongings (and haul them around), cabinets must go too... it all adds up. Might be worth you you are going to do renovation anyway. Just for the floor heating... I would certainly skip it.
Water heating != floor heating. Could do "old fashioned" heaters with surface installations of the heating pipes. It is less efficient for the heat pumps though.

The ROI goes down the toilet if COP drops from 4,5 to 2,5. Radiators with electric fans should help with that though. Warm floors help with keeping the air temperature down too.

Keravalainen · Post by **Keravalainen** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:54 am

Hi!
For a house with direct electrical heating the most economical way to cut electricity bills is an air source heat pump - on or more depending the size and shape of the house.
The pump lets you postpone turning on the electrical radiators in fall by several weeks, and you can turn them off earlier. In winter the warm air produced by the pump cuts down electricity consumption in the radiators.

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