questions about daycare and nursery

[mollypicon]

Hello! So, I am moving to Helsinki soon, probably over the summer, as the trailing spouse of a programmer who is going to work for a company on a permanent contract. We have a 2 year old daughter who will be 3 in December. We are American. I'm looking through different websites at private daycares in Helsinki. All seem to be full-time every day and very few list other options. Is part-time possible for the private (or municipal) daycares? I will not be working, except part-time from home (I'm not working now and I really doubt I'll find work in Finland). I was already planning to send my daughter to preschool for the first time this fall for around 3 mornings a week and wonder if there is anything like that in Finland (twenty hours a week would be ideal). I'm excited about the daycares/nurseries for the outdoor time and facilities, they look really good, just don't want full-time. Any advice/tips most welcome. We'll probably be in central Helsinki.

[podzap]

You won't live anywhere near central Helsinki on one income and you won't afford a private daycare on one income. Since only half of you adults are working, then you are not entitled to be putting your kid to daycare on the government's money. Finland is a two-income per family society, and if one doesn't work then childcare benefits are dropped, as should be.

[mollypicon]

You won't live anywhere near central Helsinki on one income and you won't afford a private daycare on one income. Since only half of you adults are working, then you are not entitled to be putting your kid to daycare on the government's money. Finland is a two-income per family society, and if one doesn't work then childcare benefits are dropped, as should be.

Thanks, but I was actually asking for tips about part-time care for my child. Are you saying that stay at home parents have no options for their children but to keep them at home? I've just seen that Carousel is 530 euros a month for 20 hrs a week, which is hardly a fortune.

[harakka]

Information on day care options in English:
http://www.hel.fi/www/Helsinki/en/day-c ... e/options/

These municipal daycare centers have part-time groups:
http://www.hel.fi/www/Helsinki/fi/paiva ... akodeissa/

Here's a list of private daycare centers:
http://www.hel.fi/www/Helsinki/fi/paiva ... tinumerot/

[podzap]

Thanks, but I was actually asking for tips about part-time care for my child. Are you saying that stay at home parents have no options for their children but to keep them at home? I've just seen that Carousel is 530 euros a month for 20 hrs a week, which is hardly a fortune.

Daycare spots, especially English speaking ones, are real hard to find. And the government will definitely ensure that you can not afford 530 euros a month for child care if only one of you works, thus forcing you to their subsidy program. And they won't subsidise you for more than maybe 2 hours per day (enough to provide for the child's social integration, but not enough for the mother to run poker games at home while the kids are away).

Only the top 10% of income earners would be able to get by with one salary and still pay 530 EUR per month just for child care. You can pretty much guess that you are not just going to land here into that income bracket.

[mollypicon]

Thanks

[mollypicon]

Thanks, but I was actually asking for tips about part-time care for my child. Are you saying that stay at home parents have no options for their children but to keep them at home? I've just seen that Carousel is 530 euros a month for 20 hrs a week, which is hardly a fortune.

Daycare spots, especially English speaking ones, are real hard to find. And the government will definitely ensure that you can not afford 530 euros a month for child care if only one of you works, thus forcing you to their subsidy program. And they won't subsidise you for more than maybe 2 hours per day (enough to provide for the child's social integration, but not enough for the mother to run poker games at home while the kids are away).

Only the top 10% of income earners would be able to get by with one salary and still pay 530 EUR per month just for child care. You can pretty much guess that you are not just going to land here into that income bracket.

Interesting. Are you saying that although listed daycare hours are 8 to 5, I can only put my child in for 2 hours a day? This is fine, if a little puzzling. I know it's hard to get a place, but I'm not in a huge hurry. I'm just trying to figure out what my child and I will be doing in Finland. My husband is making 5500 a month before tax, I am not sure what we will be able to afford on that but housing doesn't appear to be very expensive (at least Helsinki seems to be cheaper than other capital cities, definitely cheaper than, say, New York or Moscow).

[podzap]

Interesting. Are you saying that although listed daycare hours are 8 to 5, I can only put my child in for 2 hours a day? This is fine, if a little puzzling. I know it's hard to get a place, but I'm not in a huge hurry. I'm just trying to figure out what my child and I will be doing in Finland. My husband is making 5500 a month before tax, I am not sure what we will be able to afford on that but housing doesn't appear to be very expensive (at least Helsinki seems to be cheaper than other capital cities, definitely cheaper than, say, New York or Moscow).

5500 a month before tax will be about 3500 a month after tax. Housing is extremely competitive in Helsinki and I'm guessing you will end up paying about 1500 a month for rent assuming you take a small place in a middle-class neighborhood. Food for 3 people is easily 600 a month, assuming you eat very modestly, public transport fare is about 60 a month per adult, electricity will run you another 60-80 a month, renters insurance about 60 a month. Then you need to pay your credit cards, and if you also want a car and daycare then game over - living hand-to-hand.

basis: I've been living here for 17 years.

[Rosamunda]

Sounds about right except for the food bill. It is possible to eat quite well on less than that if you don't buy a lot of processed foods and don't eat filleted steak/fish every day of the week. Eating (and drinking) out (especially in the evenings) is very expensive so if you include that in your food budget, you could easily hit 600e/mth.

[podzap]

Note that eating lunch in the city, or company cafeteria, during the workdays will run you 9.50 to 11.00 euro per day. After the lunch subsidy from your employer, you still end up paying about 7 eur per lunch out of your net salary at the end of the month.

Also note that salaries for professional workers are only paid once per month - either on the 20th or the last day of the month. So you pretty much need to have your budgeting skills in order.

[betelgeuse]

5500 a month before tax will be about 3500 a month after tax.

You forgot to take into account that the stay at home mother will be getting benefits.

Housing is extremely competitive in Helsinki and I'm guessing you will end up paying about 1500 a month for rent assuming you take a small place in a middle-class neighborhood.

1500 will get you 60 m2 in the center of town. Three people can easily fit in that space. In middle-class suburbs you can get 100 m2 for that money.

http://www.etuovi.com/koti/blogi/vuokra ... at-alueet/

Food for 3 people is easily 600 a month, assuming you eat very modestly, public transport fare is about 60 a month per adult, electricity will run you another 60-80 a month, renters insurance about 60 a month.

Food varies at lot between households as Rosamunda said. Unless heat a sauna every day I don't know how you would be able to rack up 60-80 euros in an apartment building. We pay half that and have a sauna. Insurance for our apartment is 10 euros/month. Are you quoting fees for a house with at least partial electrical heating?

Also note that salaries for professional workers are only paid once per month - either on the 20th or the last day of the month.

The employee and employer are free to choose any day. 15th and the end of the month are most common: "Kuukauden 15. päivä ja viimeinen päivä ovat työntekijöiden yleisimpiä palkanmaksupäiviä. "

http://www.kauppalehti.fi/uutiset/palkk ... n/NcqRdeDa

[podzap]

You are not entitled to Kela benefits unless you are registered as a job seeker.

You are not entitled to be registered as a job seeker unless you have a work permit.

The husband has the work permit, not the wife. The wife is not getting benefits.

The granting of a residence permit requires that your livelihood in Finland is secured through means other than benefits paid by the state. Your livelihood must be secured, for example, through the wage income of the sponsor residing in Finland or through self-employed income.

http://www.migri.fi/moving_to_finland_t ... artnership

[betelgeuse]

You are not entitled to Kela benefits unless you are registered as a job seeker.

Hogwash. Here are a couple benefits they can get without being a job seeker.

http://www.kela.fi/web/en/child-benefit
http://www.kela.fi/web/en/flexible-care-allowance

However, as I will later show, she does have the option to become a job seeker at least on a temporary basis (though I have not heard of cases of deportation for long term reliance either).

You are not entitled to be registered as a job seeker unless you have a work permit.

All Finnish residence permits are at the same time work permits. How do you think she will be able to come here in the first place if she does not have a work permit?

The husband has the work permit, not the wife. The wife is not getting benefits.

Hogwash. Both will have personal permits.

The granting of a residence permit requires that your livelihood in Finland is secured through means other than benefits paid by the state. Your livelihood must be secured, for example, through the wage income of the sponsor residing in Finland or through self-employed income.

http://www.migri.fi/moving_to_finland_t ... artnership

I have added bold to the part of your quote that applies to her.

[podzap]

When you wait in line in front of Migri's Helsinki office starting at 4 or 5 AM, in the rain and snow, just to get a number, because they only give 50-70 per day, in order to clarify your situation, then maybe you will wish that you had listened. Or maybe not. Kids are sure to be screaming in their strollers, in any case. There are over 300 people in line every day, when the doors open at 8 AM, and about 90% of them get sent home with the advice to come back tomorrow.

Situation was a lot better when the police handled this business - there were dozens of service points around the country. Now, there are fewer than 6.

But don't listen to me, continue on with your besserwisser attitude and don't forget your raincoat.

[mollypicon]

I see there is a very lively discussion going on ... I was looking for information about the existence of part-time daycare and hadn't known I might not be able to access services at all (or can, according to betelgeuse). The only benefit I'm hoping to access, if that's what it is called, is to enroll my child in some school or daycare in Helsinki, and knowing roughly in advance where that might be will be useful when looking for an apartment. Could you tell me why I'd need a number for the Migri? Do I need to do some monthly visit to get the subsidy for the daycare? Are you saying, Podzap, that to enroll my child in some kind of nice Finnish or international school/daycare is so impossible that I should forget it, pay the full amount out of pocket (basically what I would do here in the U.S., and the fees are still lower in Helsinki than where I live), keep her at home or perhaps find a job in Finland so I can then send my child to a playschool or Montessori which takes the children for walks in the woods and other fun things? Admittedly my husband's employer sold him on the position based in part on the fine schools and care available for children (and some small amount of money)- is that just BS?