TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

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alexander1709
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TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by alexander1709 » Wed May 27, 2020 11:51 am

In general,Are there any instances in which there has been a positive partial decision from the TE office but a negative decision from Migri?
When can something like this happen?
I have applied for a work permit while being on an appeal against a negative extended student permit decision. I have a partial positive decision and am awaiting migri's decision. Only concerned that the previous negative deciosion in the case of the extended student permit does not influence the work permit decision.



TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

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betelgeuse
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by betelgeuse » Wed May 27, 2020 12:55 pm

alexander1709 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 11:51 am
In general,Are there any instances in which there has been a positive partial decision from the TE office but a negative decision from Migri?
There are.
alexander1709 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 11:51 am
When can something like this happen?
For example, due to criminal history.

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fintel
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by fintel » Sun May 31, 2020 5:24 pm

alexander1709 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 11:51 am
In general,Are there any instances in which there has been a positive partial decision from the TE office but a negative decision from Migri?
When can something like this happen?
I have applied for a work permit while being on an appeal against a negative extended student permit decision. I have a partial positive decision and am awaiting migri's decision. Only concerned that the previous negative decision in the case of the extended student permit does not influence the work permit decision.
TE Office and Migri are two separate entities. A "yes" from a TE office is not an automatic grant of residence permit from migri. Migri can disagree with the TE office. For example: migri can say that we have enough truck drivers from Turkey, we don't need any more. I know personally one case where migri refused after TE positive decision was when the job required Finnish language skills. Migri came back with a negative decision citing that the applicant does not possess language skills required for the job.

A negative decision is bad for any future applications. An immigration officer will look at your case now and say, this guy attempted to stay in the country declaring his purpose of stay as "study" and because it was refused, he has now changed his purpose of stay to "work". And then he will look at all the negative comments left over by your previous case officer on your file, and see the negative decision and form an opinion of you as a person. If you get a second negative decision, you will have essentially established a bad relationship with the country.

How about let a lawyer deal with your case if it's negative this time.
Last edited by fintel on Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:19 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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betelgeuse
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by betelgeuse » Sun May 31, 2020 5:50 pm

fintel wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 5:24 pm
Migri can disagree with the TE office. For example: migri can say that we have enough truck drivers from Turkey, we don't need any more. Your profession could be not in demand according to latest migri guidelines.
Hogwash.

https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/ ... 0301#L5P83

"Maahanmuuttovirasto myöntää työ- ja elinkeinotoimiston 1 momentin mukaan tekemän myönteisen osapäätöksen jälkeen ulkomaalaiselle työntekijän oleskeluluvan, jollei 36 §:stä muuta johdu "

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fintel
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by fintel » Sun May 31, 2020 6:09 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 5:50 pm
Hogwash.
https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/ ... 0301#L5P83
"Maahanmuuttovirasto myöntää työ- ja elinkeinotoimiston 1 momentin mukaan tekemän myönteisen osapäätöksen jälkeen ulkomaalaiselle työntekijän oleskeluluvan, jollei 36 §:stä muuta johdu "
Hogwash is a word that sounds as if it were describing using soap to give a pig a good scrub. But it actually means nonsense.

Regardless of the section of law described here which would indicate what "should happen" if TE Office gives a positive partial decision. Migri really should grant the resident permit. However, in reality Migri can issue a negative decision. Migri is under no obligation of the TE Office. How often they refuse is unknown. It happened to a man in Espoo I know, an old man, who worked as a window cleaner for 3 years, and one day his permit was refused by migri after a positive TE Office assessment.
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betelgeuse
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by betelgeuse » Sun May 31, 2020 6:47 pm

fintel wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 6:09 pm
Regardless of the section of law described here which would indicate what "should happen" if TE Office gives a positive partial decision. Migri really should grant the resident permit. However, in reality Migri can issue a negative decision. Migri is under no obligation of the TE Office.
The law isn't written with "should". There's no uncertainty in the text that the TE Office decision binds Migri.
fintel wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 6:09 pm
How often they refuse is unknown. It happened to a man in Espoo I know, an old man, who worked as a window cleaner for 3 years, and one day his permit was refused by migri after a positive TE Office assessment.
As I wrote before Migri does look into matters other than those that TE Office evaluates, for example into the criminality I mentioned.

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fintel
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by fintel » Sun May 31, 2020 7:02 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 6:47 pm
The law isn't written with "should". There's no uncertainty in the text that the TE Office decision binds Migri.
As I wrote before Migri does look into matters other than those that TE Office evaluates, for example into the criminality I mentioned.
In principle you agree that Migri can refuse a residence permit after a positive TE Office decision. There is no real legal binding. Here is however many reasons they can use to refuse:

1. You are a suspected extremist.
2. You are a criminal.
3. You pose a risk to Finland's relations with rest of the world.
4. You have corona virus and deemed a danger to public health and safety.
5. Your employer doesn't have proper insurances.
6. Your job doesn't have enough hours.
7. You applied for a refugee status before this work permit and that was refused.
8. You have previous history of lying to migri.

And probably another thousand reasons why a resident permit can be refused. TE Office is no final decision making authority.
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fintel
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by fintel » Sun May 31, 2020 8:45 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 6:47 pm
As I wrote before Migri does look into matters other than those that TE Office evaluates, for example into the criminality I mentioned.
There is no real legal binding if there are exceptions to the rule. A lawyer could argue in court that a person with criminal history can choose a different way of life and wash dishes for the remainder of his life but such a person will not qualify for a resident permit.
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betelgeuse
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by betelgeuse » Sun May 31, 2020 9:22 pm

fintel wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 7:02 pm
In principle you agree that Migri can refuse a residence permit after a positive TE Office decision. There is no real legal binding. Here is however many reasons they can use to refuse:

1. You are a suspected extremist.
2. You are a criminal.
3. You pose a risk to Finland's relations with rest of the world.
4. You have corona virus and deemed a danger to public health and safety.
5. Your employer doesn't have proper insurances.
6. Your job doesn't have enough hours.
7. You applied for a refugee status before this work permit and that was refused.
8. You have previous history of lying to migri.

And probably another thousand reasons why a resident permit can be refused. TE Office is no final decision making authority.
Your list includes things that TE Office handles with their partial decision. The list is otherwise dubious as well but I don't think it's worth the time to dispute items point by point. Since this discussion isn't going anywhere we will just have to agree to disagree.
fintel wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 8:45 pm
There is no real legal binding if there are exceptions to the rule.
This statement doesn't make much sense to me. Exceptions are a very common feature of law.

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fintel
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by fintel » Sun May 31, 2020 9:44 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 9:22 pm
Your list includes things that TE Office handles with their partial decision. The list is otherwise dubious as well but I don't think it's worth the time to dispute items point by point. Since this discussion isn't going anywhere we will just have to agree to disagree.
fintel wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 8:45 pm
There is no real legal binding if there are exceptions to the rule.
This statement doesn't make much sense to me. Exceptions are a very common feature of law.
I have seen at least one case where migri issued a negative decision when TE office issued a positive. The applicant had no criminal history.

The problem here is that your experience is theory related and my experience is real world related.
Last edited by fintel on Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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betelgeuse
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by betelgeuse » Sun May 31, 2020 11:10 pm

fintel wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 9:44 pm
I have seen at least one case where migri issued a negative decision when TE office issued a positive. The applicant had no criminal history.

The problem here is that your experience is theory related and my experience is real world related.
What makes you think I wouldn't have personal experience with the Finnish immigration system?

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fintel
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by fintel » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:56 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:10 pm
What makes you think I wouldn't have personal experience with the Finnish immigration system?
The way you relate everything back to the Aliens Act.
Last edited by fintel on Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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betelgeuse
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by betelgeuse » Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:07 am

fintel wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:56 am
betelgeuse wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:10 pm
What makes you think I wouldn't have personal experience with the Finnish immigration system?
Have you spent 6 months in a refugee detention center with another refugee man from vietnam and his 1 year old baby? Every day the baby would cry in your face and need milk and you wouldn't know what law to apply there. I think your reading of the Aliens Act would change dramatically if you had that experience personally.
I have not. However, my work duties include handling residence permit matters for our employees.

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fintel
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by fintel » Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:00 am

...
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fintel
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Re: TE office partial positive decision Migri negative

Post by fintel » Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:13 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:07 am
I have not. However, my work duties include handling residence permit matters for our employees.
I emailed my lawyer and asked this question whether migri can give negative decision after a partial positive decision by TE Office and this what the lawyer said:

"A short answer is that yes, Migri can give a negative decision after a positive partial decision from a TE-office. However this is not that common and in these kind of cases a positive partial decision leads in many cases to a positive decision from Migri".

Best regards,
Jouni Aarnio
Licensed Legal Counsel
Finnish Immigration
Last edited by fintel on Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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