Changing grounds in PR application

[jperickson]

If you are here on a family ties extended permit and want to apply for permanent residency under a work application (because, for example, the relationship has ended), are there minimum requirements for what constitutes sufficient employment beyond the income requirement? I'm asking because if you come to Finland initially on a work permit, your employer has to go through the process with you (they have to supplement your application and the application may go under labor market review). But what if you were in Finland on a family ties visa and got the job that way? Will any job meeting income requirements do (assuming you meet the other requirements of the PR) and is no participation of the employer required?

[FinlandGirl]

If you are here on a family ties extended permit and want to apply for permanent residency under a work application (because, for example, the relationship has ended), are there minimum requirements for what constitutes sufficient employment beyond the income requirement? I'm asking because if you come to Finland initially on a work permit, your employer has to go through the process with you (they have to supplement your application and the application may go under labor market review). But what if you were in Finland on a family ties visa and got the job that way? Will any job meeting income requirements do (assuming you meet the other requirements of the PR) and is no participation of the employer required?

Finland does not have any RPs solely based on "sufficient means of support", any new permit or extension requires fulfilling the requirements for the permit. The only difference for extensions on the same ground is that there is no need to recheck things that haven't changed since the previous RP was granted.

[jperickson]

Perhaps my question wasn't clear. I'm not discussing a means of support visa, but rather going from family-based to work-based grounds when applying for permanent residency. What are the requirements of the job in this situation? Keep in mind it may be a job you've been working in for perhaps years already.

As a hypothetical example to get at the heart of my question: imagine your first and extended permits are based on family ties which come with unlimited work right. While here on that permit, you get a job as a bartender. This is a job that would have been very difficult or impossible to get if you didn't already have work privileges via your family-based permit. Now, some years later, you want to apply for permanent residency. You're no longer in the original relationship so new grounds for your PR are required. What are the minimum requirements of the job in this case? Is it only the income requirement or are there other requirements of, for example, your employer (the bar), as would have been the case had this job been the grounds under which you got your first permit (and which likely would have prevented you from getting that job). Does that make more sense?

[FinlandGirl]

Perhaps my question wasn't clear. I'm not discussing a means of support visa, but rather going from family-based to work-based grounds when applying for permanent residency. What are the requirements of the job in this situation? Keep in mind it may be a job you've been working in for perhaps years already.

The requirement for the RP are as stated.

As a hypothetical example to get at the heart of my question: imagine your first and extended permits are based on family ties which come with unlimited work right. While here on that permit, you get a job as a bartender. This is a job that would have been very difficult or impossible to get if you didn't already have work privileges via your family-based permit. Now, some years later, you want to apply for permanent residency. You're no longer in the original relationship so new grounds for your PR are required. What are the minimum requirements of the job in this case? Is it only the income requirement or are there other requirements of, for example, your employer (the bar), as would have been the case had this job been the grounds under which you got your first permit (and which likely would have prevented you from getting that job).

A prerequisite for a positive decision on a non-specialist RP on the basis of work is a positive decision from TE that there are no unemployed people available who could do the job instead.

[jperickson]

A prerequisite for a positive decision on a non-specialist RP on the basis of work is a positive decision from TE that there are no unemployed people available who could do the job instead.

Thank you. So even if you have already had this job for years potentially in this example, TE would have to give a positive decision. Is this true for all work-based non-specialist renewals? The TE office would have to give a positive decision again, even though they may have done so 1-2 years earlier for the same person and job?

[FinlandGirl]

A prerequisite for a positive decision on a non-specialist RP on the basis of work is a positive decision from TE that there are no unemployed people available who could do the job instead.

Thank you. So even if you have already had this job for years potentially in this example, TE would have to give a positive decision. Is this true for all work-based non-specialist renewals? The TE office would have to give a positive decision again, even though they may have done so 1-2 years earlier for the same person and job?

I am not sure about the formal side, but I have never heard about an extension refusal on that basis when the applicant is still in the same employment relationship for which a positive partial decision had already been given before.

[betelgeuse]

deleted

[betelgeuse]

Finland does not have any RPs solely based on "sufficient means of support", any new permit or extension requires fulfilling the requirements for the permit. The only difference for extensions on the same ground is that there is no need to recheck things that haven't changed since the previous RP was granted.

The law has been changed so that extensions to have less requirements. However, this does not apply when changing basis from family to work.

"Jos jatkolupahakemus koskee samaa ammattialaa kuin hakemusta jätettäessä voimassa oleva työntekijän oleskelulupa tai jos se ei koske samaa ammattialaa ja ulkomaalainen on työskennellyt työntekijän oleskeluluvan nojalla vähintään yhdeksän kuukauden ajan, 1 momentin 1 ja 2 kohtaa ei sovelleta."

https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2004/20040301

[37yqp8098y5]

As I understand you can't get a PR permit this way. You'd have to start on an "A" permit again. A friend of mine had his PR processing and the relationship ended which would have threatened his possibility of getting the PR permit. When he called up anonymously to Migri they said he should apply for an "A" permit based on work. Then continue the process again under that reason. It's not fair but that's how it goes.

My friend ended up staying in close and friendly contact with his ex and when Migri called her right before making a decision to ask if they were still together. She lied and said "Yes". They granted his PR and then officially they divorced 1 month later. Now he just renews the PR every 5 years when the card goes to expire which costs nothing and takes only a few days. As soon as you get the PR, you don't have to worry about any reason for it being valid anymore.

In short, go beg your ex to argue your case to last just long enough until you get a decision and accept whatever demands she has. Otherwise start all over again.

[betelgeuse]

As I understand you can't get a PR permit this way. You'd have to start on an "A" permit again. A friend of mine had his PR processing and the relationship ended which would have threatened his possibility of getting the PR permit. When he called up anonymously to Migri they said he should apply for an "A" permit based on work. Then continue the process again under that reason. It's not fair but that's how it goes.

My friend ended up staying in close and friendly contact with his ex and when Migri called her right before making a decision to ask if they were still together. She lied and said "Yes". They granted his PR and then officially they divorced 1 month later. Now he just renews the PR every 5 years when the card goes to expire which costs nothing and takes only a few days. As soon as you get the PR, you don't have to worry about any reason for it being valid anymore.

In short, go beg your ex to argue your case to last just long enough until you get a decision and accept whatever demands she has. Otherwise start all over again.

Incorrect. There’s no concept of starting the process all over again. Being eligible for any A permit is enough.

” Pysyvä oleskelulupa myönnetään ulkomaalaiselle, joka on jatkuvan oleskeluluvan saatuaan luvallisesti oleskellut maassa yhtäjaksoisesti neljän vuoden ajan, jos edellytykset, joiden perusteella ulkomaalaiselle myönnetään jatkuva oleskelulupa, ovat olemassa ja pysyvän oleskeluluvan myöntämiselle ei ole tässä laissa mainittuja esteitä.”

https://finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2004/20040301

You do not renew PR. You renew the card. This is analogous to renewing passports (one does not renew citizenship).

[FinlandGirl]

My friend ended up staying in close and friendly contact with his ex and when Migri called her right before making a decision to ask if they were still together. She lied and said "Yes". They granted his PR and then officially they divorced 1 month later. Now he just renews the PR every 5 years when the card goes to expire which costs nothing and takes only a few days. As soon as you get the PR, you don't have to worry about any reason for it being valid anymore.

Giving incorrect information when applying for a PR is a valid reason for revoking a PR (and would then likely also result in RPs on other grounds being denied).