Taxes- A Picture

superiorinferior · Post by **superiorinferior** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:19 am

pierrot wrote:
Phil wrote:
pierrot wrote:Aahhh, I was missing some foreigner crying about taxes which are too high!
Thank you, libertarian party!

If people keep using quotes of you as signatures, it should give you a hint about the fallacy of your statements.

So Pierut

, you honestly don't think taxes are high??

**Sponsor:**

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:48 am

Mind you - Hullu Pierrot lives in Rovaniemi. If Norwegians come over to buy cheap booze your reality gets a few blows...

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:59 am

pierrot wrote: If people keep using quotes of you as signatures, it should give you a hint about the fallacy of your statements.

Uhhh....do you even know what "fallacy" means? Are you saying that I lied about changing my clothes, shoes, hair, glasses, mannerisms...?

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:12 am

I know what my next sig will be:

"It was funny the first time, cool the second time, and the third time is just kinda gay."

pierrot · Post by **pierrot** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:07 am

Hank W. wrote:Mind you - Hullu Pierrot lives in Rovaniemi. If Norwegians come over to buy cheap booze your reality gets a few blows...

Yeah, we have guards in front of our alkos now

pierrot · Post by **pierrot** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:12 am

superiorinferior wrote:
pierrot wrote:
Phil wrote: So Pierut , you honestly don't think taxes are high??

Let me just give you example about "high taxes":
If you get a bonus of 250 euros but only find 90 euros in your pockets after taxes and various insurances, THAT'S high taxes

Sorry to burst yours guys' bubble but Scandinavia is renowned for its taxsystem. It' s a price these societies are ready to pay to make their countries and societies work like THEY want. Of course everyone will say "taxes are high", but if you tell them "ok we lower taxes and you get schools on american level!" you can bet that they will be ready to pay the higher taxes rather then cut down their social net.

pierrot · Post by **pierrot** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:17 am

Phil wrote:
pierrot wrote: If people keep using quotes of you as signatures, it should give you a hint about the fallacy of your statements.
Uhhh....do you even know what "fallacy" means? Are you saying that I lied about changing my clothes, shoes, hair, glasses, mannerisms...?

Yeah, sorry, me foreigner, me no speak english, Its not the first time you come with that kind of argument, Phil...

Let me give you a definition of fallacy, as you seem to mix fallacy and lie:
"a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning "
"a mistake in reasoning"

You can change your clothes, your shoes, your haircolor as much as you want. You can even claim about your mannerism. Fine by me.
But let me give you a hint: changes start in the head, not with the color of the hair surrounding it.

otyikondo · Post by **otyikondo** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:51 am

What's in a signature...

With apologies to Bruce.

He gets up in the evening
And he ain't got nothing to say
He comes home in the morning
Goes to bed feeling the same way
He ain't nothing but wired
Man He's just wired and bored with himself
Hey there baby, he could use just a little help

You can't start a fire
You can't start a fire without a troll
This thread's for hire
Even if we're just dancing in the scroll

Message keeps getting clearer
PC's on and he's moving 'round the place
He checks his look in the mirror
He wanna change his clothes, his hair, his face
Man he ain't getting nowhere
He's just writing WUM-text just like this
There's a Finn to wind up somewhere
Baby he just knows there is

You can't start a fire
You can't start a fire without a troll
This thread's for hire
Even if we're just dancing in the scroll

He sits around getting poorer
There's welfare bums and they're on him
He'd love to swap Tarja for Laura
Come on baby, try "sink or swim".

Stay on the streets of Espoo
Tax bear's carving you up alright
They say you gotta stay hungry
Hey baby he's just about starving tonight
He's dying for a reaction
He's sick of sitting 'round here trying to flame some dope
Needs Libertarian action
Come on Pierrot, give him just a little rope

You can always start a fire sitting 'round saying things suck
This thread's for hire
Even if we couldn't give a <insert expletive deleted here>
You can start a fire winding up a willing soul
This thread's for hire
Even if we're just dancing in the scroll
Even if we're just dancing in the scroll
Even if we're just dancing in the scroll
Even if we're just dancing in the scroll

superiorinferior · Post by **superiorinferior** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:51 am

pierrot wrote: Let me just give you example about "high taxes":
If you get a bonus of 250 euros but only find 90 euros in your pockets after taxes and various insurances, THAT'S high taxes

It' s a price these societies are ready to pay to make their countries and societies work like THEY want. Of course everyone will say "taxes are high", but if you tell them "ok we lower taxes and you get schools on american level!" you can bet that they will be ready to pay the higher taxes rather then cut down their social net.

Yeah, that is a high tax rate... but from whence did thine numbers come? I suppose I could say "If you get 100 euros and get to keep 10, THAT's high taxes...," eh?

So you mean all of the people in Finland want high/higher taxes? I would beg to differ.... Ok, maybe not taxes, but they definitely would like higher wages. Most anyone would like to have more money to provide for their families and entertainment systems, cottages and on and on....

Additionally, seeing as the taxes are so high, I don't see services particularly improving. Actually, they are in steep decline... I'm not even gonna get started on dentists etc. And this culture of letting "students" "study" for 10 years at a time, getting big discounts on train tickets and other benefits for "students." I have a friend who is about 34 and just signed up again to be a student, just so he could get cheap tickets on trains to turku... How is that how "THEY want the country to work"?!!!

There is basically no free mental health care, unless you are SERIOUSLY suicidal, and then it is pretty much too late. ... Health care here is SICK care, VEEEERY LITTLE preventative care, and LOTS of bypass surgeries... THE LIST GOES ON AND ON....

Since we don't have the vote as foreigners, at least don't begrudge us of our bitching... THAT'S ALL WE HAVE!!!! (not including high taxes... we have those, too).

bretti_kivi · Post by **bretti_kivi** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:54 am

naaa - high taxes is when increase in money means you pay more tax so you get less out of it...

everything's relative.

we've been through this recently.....

Bret

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:03 pm

If you are a family w/kids, one parent is unemployed/maternity leave and you are on means-tested benefits, you have to calculate if you get a payrise (or a part-time job) you might end up with less money than sitting home and doing nothing (or going to work and ending up with 20 euros more)

pierrot · Post by **pierrot** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:09 pm

superiorinferior wrote:Yeah, that is a high tax rate... but from whence did thine numbers come? I suppose I could say "If you get 100 euros and get to keep 10, THAT's high taxes...," eh?

So you mean all of the people in Finland want high/higher taxes? I would beg to differ.... Ok, maybe not taxes, but they definitely would like higher wages. Most anyone would like to have more money to provide for their families and entertainment systems, cottages and on and on....

Additionally, seeing as the taxes are so high, I don't see services particularly improving. Actually, they are in steep decline... I'm not even gonna get started on dentists etc. And this culture of letting "students" "study" for 10 years at a time, getting big discounts on train tickets and other benefits for "students." I have a friend who is about 34 and just signed up again to be a student, just so he could get cheap tickets on trains to turku... How is that how "THEY want the country to work"?!!!

There is basically no free mental health care, unless you are SERIOUSLY suicidal, and then it is pretty much too late. ... Health care here is SICK care, VEEEERY LITTLE preventative care, and LOTS of bypass surgeries... THE LIST GOES ON AND ON....

Since we don't have the vote as foreigners, at least don't begrudge us of our bitching... THAT'S ALL WE HAVE!!!! (not including high taxes... we have those, too).

My numbers came from my own experience in germany

Its a REAL example.
Of course they dont WANT high taxes like "please please, take our money!", but there is a consensus that the money is used in the way the society wants it and its therefor more acceptable.
And yes, I think most would prefer a higher salary than lower taxes and the following cuts in social and educational domains.
About your model-student: of course you have people in every country who just use and abuse the system. Thats a sad reality. But why should the finns cut back everything just because a few exploit it? and considering the high level of people with degrees in Finland compared to other countries, the finnish educational system doesnt seem to be THAT wrong, does it? (especially if you look at the pisa-studies).
Certain things really go down the drain and will have to be adressed, but as long as the positive parts outweight the negatives, its reassuring. There is no country int he world where everything is 100%.
Its ok to complain a few times about certain things, but at a certain point you have to either cope with it or simply leave the country and look for a better alternative for your own way of thinking.
Maybe I should instore a tax on bitching!

superiorinferior · Post by **superiorinferior** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:17 pm

pierrot wrote: Certain things really go down the drain and will have to be adressed, but as long as the positive parts outweight the negatives, its reassuring.

There is nothing reassuring about "National Health Care" when it actually doesn't exist in reality!

but... I won't go on and on. I will just keep paying and keep paying and keep hoping.... After all, isn't that what a real Finn would do?

p.s. I liked that part about "if you don't like it, leave..." very original. Unfortunately, I've got a family I am supposedly providing for. They wouldn't take nicely to low-tax Boston.

pierrot · Post by **pierrot** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:18 pm

Hank W. wrote:If you are a family w/kids, one parent is unemployed/maternity leave and you are on means-tested benefits, you have to calculate if you get a payrise (or a part-time job) you might end up with less money than sitting home and doing nothing (or going to work and ending up with 20 euros more)

Yes, you wil lfind that issue also in other european countries.
Something has to be done about it.

superiorinferior · Post by **superiorinferior** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:22 pm

pierrot wrote: Something has to be done about it.

I guess that just leaves the question: What needs to be done, and who the hell is going to do it, if Finns are so friggin happy about the system???!

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Taxes- A Picture