Waitin' on the residence permit. Anyone recently get theirs?

khu · Post by **khu** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:08 am

Yes I suppose I am firmly grounded in the Other category.

I guess by those rules, the only way this would work is to live with someone while working in Finland.

VERY strange. They have high unemployment. Wouldnt' they be HAPPY to have someone spend money there while NOT taking a Finnish job from a obvious more-deserving Finnish person?? Are they afraid I'm going to use up a bunch of health benefits or something? Do I even GET health benefits? I'm very healthy and I have enough money to pay for medical services, and am insured for costly medical services in case of accident or emergency.

**Sponsor:**

mookoo · Post by **mookoo** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:31 am

I think the social benefits are exactly it, whether you "intend" to use them or not. I put that in quotations because although I believe you when you say you would pay, not everyone would keep their word if they said that. I guess they don't want anyone mooooooching off the system.

However, I just thought ... since Bush was re-elected ... maybe you could claim as refugee?

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:41 am

The fact you said that you intend to stay only 6 months was a huge mistake and is grounds to deny your application. 6 months sounds more like an extended vacation than wanting reside in Finland based on family ties. What is your intention after that 6 months? Will you return to the U.S.? Will your girlfriend accompany you? Their argument will be that you can enter Finland for 90 days as a tourist and then your girlfriend can return to the U.S. with you. There's not a lot of complaining you can do until the decision is returned. If your request is urgent then it's possible to send a 'speed up' request which is basically a letter outlining why. I would prepare for a negative decision and appealing would be difficult based on the fact that you're not really applying for residence but rather an extended vacation. Good luck though and let us know the outcome.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:49 am

mookoo wrote:just to get married otherwise you will have to fill out a LOT of paperwork

I would have asked for that response in writing. I'm sure she wouldn't have written it. I'd argue that getting married involves MORE paperwork that not being married. There's been a ton of questions regarding marriage certificates and residence permits.

Persons living continuously in a marriage-like relationship within the same household regardless of their sex are comparable to a married couple. The requirement is that they have lived together for at least two years. This is not required if the persons have a child in their joint custody or if there is some other weighty reason for it.

This isn't new, it's been around for a while.

khu · Post by **khu** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:23 pm

Dan wrote:The fact you said that you intend to stay only 6 months was a huge mistake and is grounds to deny your application. 6 months sounds more like an extended vacation than wanting reside in Finland based on family ties. What is your intention after that 6 months? Will you return to the U.S.? Will your girlfriend accompany you? Their argument will be that you can enter Finland for 90 days as a tourist and then your girlfriend can return to the U.S. with you. There's not a lot of complaining you can do until the decision is returned. If your request is urgent then it's possible to send a 'speed up' request which is basically a letter outlining why. I would prepare for a negative decision and appealing would be difficult based on the fact that you're not really applying for residence but rather an extended vacation. Good luck though and let us know the outcome.

Hi. Actually my intention was to see how I liked living in Finland for that time. I would have returned to the US with her for 2-3 months to visit, then probably return. It's not entirely a vacation, as I will be doing work with US companies over the internet.

The other thing is that I HAVE in fact visited Finland on tourist visas several several times, 4 times now, and the lady at the consulate said that this wouldn't be an unreasonable request to get a permit for a longer stay. It was on that basis that I submitted my application.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:43 pm

I didn't want to be negative, I just wanted to be realistic. In the eyes of the Finnish officials if you're not resident then you're visiting. The fact you'll be working remotely doesn't change that. Have you thought about the tax implications? Being granted a residence permit means that you'll be a resident of Finland. It doesn't matter in which country your bank account is. Guess where you're tax dollars will probably end up. I seriously think the best option is for you to spend 90 days in Finland and then decide. If it's what you want after that then apply for a permit. It will be easier in Finland too. Under the basis of family ties a residence permit can be granted to an 'alien' in Finland if they don't already have one. I think you've waited 6 months already which for a 6 month residence permit is ridiculous. If you've been to Finland 4 times then I feel you have some understanding of what it's like to be here. It seems you have nothing to lose so take the risk and do it! If it doesn't work out then you can always return. You wouldn't be the first person on this forum to have taken a risk. I think we all have.

khu · Post by **khu** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:15 pm

Hi. I'm glad to hear realistic assessments, I dont mind it at all.

Thanks.

I have spent probably 9 months in Finland total adding up all my tourist visa stays, 90 days at a time over the past 2 years. I'm not sure I entirely follow what you're saying about family ties. Are you saying we should get married first? Otherwise there are no family ties, we have both been flying back and forth to see each other. As for the work issue, yes, I realize that in the end I would have to pay finnish taxes.

Perhaps I will send a note to the person and say that I intend to stay for 6 months, come back fo 2-3 months, then return to finland for a few months, making my entire stay closer to a year in length.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:38 pm

No I'm not suggesting marriage. Common law marriage is equal to marriage in terms of application for a residence permit. The word 'girlfriend' has no place on a residence permit. It best to use the term 'partner'. After all that's what she is I presume. The fact you've both gone to considerable trouble to have a relationship proves that. In your case, family ties means either a) you're married to a Finn or b) you're in a common law relationship with one. The rules on common law marriage require that you've lived together for two years. It doesn't state it must be consecutive years. The fact you want to return to the U.S. for several months after being in Finland doesn't concern the Finnish government. What you must prove is your relationship with your girlfriend is genuine and that you wish for it to continue. With the decision being so close the best you can do is sit and wait. I wouldn't aggravate the situation. If the decision is negative then we can discuss your options.

mookoo · Post by **mookoo** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:57 pm

Dan wrote:I would have asked for that response in writing. I'm sure she wouldn't have written it. I'd argue that getting married involves MORE paperwork that not being married. There's been a ton of questions regarding marriage certificates and residence permits.

We were going to get married eventually anyway ... we are engaged. But until I had starting looking at the residence permit application we had planned on waiting to get married until I got adjusted to Finland. But by all the hoops we had to jump through, it wasn't looking very good. So I didn't mind the thought of speeding the marriage up anyway. And we can choose to be married either in the USA or in Finland and it will be valid.

Dan wrote:
Persons living continuously in a marriage-like relationship within the same household regardless of their sex are comparable to a married couple. The requirement is that they have lived together for at least two years. This is not required if the persons have a child in their joint custody or if there is some other weighty reason for it.
This isn't new, it's been around for a while.

I believe that to use the common law marriage I believe you have to officially reside together for 2 years, meaning you had the same legal address for that time and I don't think just visiting counts. But I wouldn't quote me on that, I could be wrong. My boyfriend and I have stayed together for many months combined, but never technically "lived" together.

Dan wrote:The word 'girlfriend' has no place on a residence permit. It best to use the term 'partner'. After all that's what she is I presume.

Actually, on the application it does have a space for "registered partner" but that is only for ... er ... homosexual couples. So the choices are married, cohabitant (live together for 2+ years), or registered (a.k.a. same-sex) partner.

So if you want to go the "other" category, you will have to supply a whole bunch of other information and applications. My finace and I worked on this route for about a month and a half or two months before we gave up and decided to just get married instead.

But if it is just an extended stay, then I think the suggestion just to get an extended visa would probably be a better idea and then wait to file the application for residency until you are ready to stay for good (or at least longer than a few months) and can file under one of the named headings (not necessarily family ties). Because the one thing I have learned about the UVI is that they do NOT like taking special requests!

mookoo · Post by **mookoo** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:58 pm

crap, I accidently pushed the "quote" button when I didn't mean to. Don't mind me

khu · Post by **khu** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:15 am

Dan wrote:No I'm not suggesting marriage. Common law marriage is equal to marriage in terms of application for a residence permit. The word 'girlfriend' has no place on a residence permit. It best to use the term 'partner'. After all that's what she is I presume. The fact you've both gone to considerable trouble to have a relationship proves that. In your case, family ties means either a) you're married to a Finn or b) you're in a common law relationship with one. The rules on common law marriage require that you've lived together for two years. It doesn't state it must be consecutive years. The fact you want to return to the U.S. for several months after being in Finland doesn't concern the Finnish government. What you must prove is your relationship with your girlfriend is genuine and that you wish for it to continue. With the decision being so close the best you can do is sit and wait. I wouldn't aggravate the situation. If the decision is negative then we can discuss your options.

Well, at the suggestion of the consulate I documented (with tickets, passport photocopies, and itenerary) all of my travels to Finland and all of her trips to the US. My understanding of a common law marriage is as Mookoo said; it must be documented through both names on a rental agreement, etc etc. I have none of that.

The catch-22 seems to be that you cannot get a common-law marriage unless you have a residence permit, and it's hard to get a residence permit without a common-law marriage.

At this point I'm going to just try to reassure the processing clerk that our relationship is serious, and that I am not a freeloader trying somehow to get free medical services or any other kind of services, if that is the concern.

simakun · Post by **simakun** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:21 pm

how about this: push comes to shove, if all else fails and you don't get the permit you want and you don't want to get married, then why not apply to a university or polytechnic in the city your girlfriend lives in? i think application deadlines for non residents are in feb for the autumn intake. if you're in the IT field i'm sure they must have a Master's degree in IT in english. you can work over the internet, stay for as long as the course lasts without any visa hassles and best of all be with yer gf.

mookoo · Post by **mookoo** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:18 am

khu wrote:The catch-22 seems to be that you cannot get a common-law marriage unless you have a residence permit, and it's hard to get a residence permit without a common-law marriage.

I noticed that too. It makes my head hurt too much to think about it.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:39 pm

That's why the law is flexible. What they're looking for is evidence of a partnership and not just some short romance. I know of permits that have been issued after 6 months of co-habitation so it depends on the situtation.

mookoo · Post by **mookoo** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 8:11 pm

I don't know if this is of any help but its part of the Aliens Act

Section 49 – Issuing first fixed-term residence permits to aliens who have entered the country without residence permits

(1) An alien who has entered the country without a residence permit is issued with a temporary or continuous residence permit in Finland if the requirements for issuing such a residence permit abroad are met, and if:
1) the alien or at least one of his or her parents or grandparents is or has been a Finnish citizen by birth;
2) the alien has already, before entering Finland, lived together with his or her married spouse who lives in Finland, or has continuously lived together for at least two years in the same household in a marriage-like relationship with a person who lives in Finland;
3) refusing a residence permit for an employed or self-employed person applied for in Finland would be unfounded from the alien’s or employer’s point of view; or
4) refusing a residence permit would be manifestly unreasonable.
(2) A temporary or continuous residence permit is issued on the same grounds as an equivalent permit applied for abroad.
(3) Correspondingly, the provision in subsection 1(2) applies to registered partnerships of the same sex and to marriage-like relationships of two persons of the same sex living continuously together in the same household.

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Waitin' on the residence permit. Anyone recently get theirs?