Hyvää payvää from Mexico again.

[mookoo]

They don't let me have enough hours at work - now whats this talk about no holidays then?

Well, where I worked before, all the full-time people did get holidays off (about 2 days per month average) but part-time people like me got to work on the holidays (Christmas-eve, Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc.) with no overtime AND were usually asked not to come in during the non-holiday time of the week so we wouldn't go "over hours". Its a lovely system.

It's not my calculation, hon

Thanks for the clarification, sweetheart

[Hank W.]

Hey, offended female of the heterosexual persuasion, the eastpondian address of "hon" and "luv" is colloquial English to "mate" or "bloke". If you get offended by the local language - please note American values/ English / PC talk are not the standard here...

In other words - before getting your knickers in a twist give someone the benefit of the doubt, eh?

[PeterF]

"hon"

Actualy I think Majava abreviated..Honestly..to hon...not honey to hon..
It should have read..
"It's not my calculation, honestly, it's how työ(tön)voima(ton)toimisto is seeing it !"
Another transatlantic communication error.

[mookoo]

Hey, offended female of the heterosexual persuasion, the eastpondian address of "hon" and "luv" is colloquial English to "mate" or "bloke". If you get offended by the local language - please note American values/ English / PC talk are not the standard here...

In other words - before getting your knickers in a twist give someone the benefit of the doubt, eh?

Sorry mate ... It sounded a bit moody, but I didn't mean to be bad news. I suppose I shall go brew-up some tea this avvy and then go drive my lorry and pet my moggie ... and of course, untwist my knickers!

[Hank W.]

Another transatlantic communication error.

Its going around really!

[Caroline]

But I think its more important to look at how many quality jobs you have in each country. Sure, just about anyone can find a job at McDonalds or Walmart, but at $7.50 an hour ... its not exactly putting much food on the table ... if you can even afford a table.

I'm not sure that this is so. Keep in mind that the majority of jobs available in Finland are also blue-collar; the only reason why that may not be obvious is because most expats probably hang out with other expats who come here for professional white-collar positions.

But thats just the way it looks to me coming from where I lived in Kansas (completely dead job market) to Seinäjoki where everything looks nice, theres no "ghetto" and I am not stepping over 12 homeless people when I walk downtown.

I'll bet that Seinäjoki has slums too, but one has to look at them through the eyes of a Finn. Same thing with Oulu. When I first came here, I couldn't find anything "wrong" with the city. Now that I've been here for a fairly long time, I clearly see the difference between the stagnant areas/slums and more prosperous areas, and yet Oulu is supposed to be one of the richest cities in the country, or so I've been told.

[Hank W.]

I'll bet that Seinäjoki has slums too, but one has to look at them through the eyes of a Finn.

This is what I try to explain to people...

[Majava]

Another transatlantic communication error.

Tell me about it, "CB", I don't even dare to comment there.... And you were right Peter, but as I read it again, also Hank could be Does it really matter?

[mookoo]

I'll bet that Seinäjoki has slums too, but one has to look at them through the eyes of a Finn.

This is what I try to explain to people...

If you say so, but I haven't been waking up to gunfire much anymore. I asked my boyfriend where the slums were and he drove me by an apartment building and said "these are where people live who are on government assistance" GASP! Sorry, I still don't see it.

In my opinion, the eyes of a Finn are much too critical of everything. Is it so hard to say that you have a nice country? When Finns are outside of Finland they are always saying how much nicer it is in Finland, but then I hear from people who are living in Finland how terrible it is to live here. Are Finns (or expats in Finland) ever satisfied? Is it so wrong for me to think it is nice here?

[dusty_bin]

mookoo, in most material measures, most Finns are poor by American standards, in terms of living space per person, calories of food, number and type of household appliances, personal transportation etc etc etc.
Finland is fortunate that they built much of what you see during very recent times. You may think of the US as a country with little that is old, but Finland, as you see it today, did not get started until after WW2.

In Finland, the relatively generous state benefits tend to mean that unemployment is invisible. The social and psychological effects of long term unemployment are just the same as in the US. The murder rate is IIRC the highest in Europe, suicides, likewise, although I think that now Latvia is in the EU, they may have pipped Finland. Divorce rates are among the highest in the world.
Hmmm looks good to me.
Just because you do not see it in the same terms that you are used to does not mean the problems do not exist.

Finland had the worst male suicide rate (28.8 per 100,000 in 1999)
http://socialreport.msd.govt.nz/health/suicide.html

Divorce rate as a percentage of marriages: Finland - 56% USA - 46%
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

Murder rate per 100,000 population (1994): USA - 5.7, Finland 3.24 (but highest in Europe after Northern Ireland hmmmm....)
http://thegreenman.net.au/mt/archives/000055.html

Unemployment rate (approximate, based upon ILO figures 2001)
Finland 9-10%, USA 5%
http://www.ilo.org/public/english/emplo ... kilm08.htm

Alchoholism male and female combined 4.3% USA, Finland 10%
Encyclopaedia Brittanica and http://www.maddogproductions.com/ds_cellphone_kids.htm

[Hank W.]

[ Is it so wrong for me to think it is nice here?

No, you need to stay here 30 years and drive the same car 20 of them while the politicians raise the taxes and drive in taxis before you start to appreciate Finland.

Also, you have to go abroad to places with no central heating, carpets in the bathroom and no buttshowers to appreciate Finnish things.

[pierrot]

In Finland, the relatively generous state benefits tend to mean that unemployment is invisible. The social and psychological effects of long term unemployment are just the same as in the US. The murder rate is IIRC the highest in Europe, suicides, likewise, although I think that now Latvia is in the EU, they may have pipped Finland. Divorce rates are among the highest in the world.
Hmmm looks good to me.
Just because you do not see it in the same terms that you are used to does not mean the problems do not exist.

Finland had the worst male suicide rate (28.8 per 100,000 in 1999)
http://socialreport.msd.govt.nz/health/suicide.html

Divorce rate as a percentage of marriages: Finland - 56% USA - 46%
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

Murder rate per 100,000 population (1994): USA - 5.7, Finland 3.24 (but highest in Europe after Northern Ireland hmmmm....)
http://thegreenman.net.au/mt/archives/000055.html

Unemployment rate (approximate, based upon ILO figures 2001)
Finland 9-10%, USA 5%
http://www.ilo.org/public/english/emplo ... kilm08.htm

Alchoholism male and female combined 4.3% USA, Finland 10%
Encyclopaedia Brittanica and http://www.maddogproductions.com/ds_cellphone_kids.htm

Comparing Finland with the USA is comparing apples with pears.
One should compare the parts of the USA with the same climatic conditions than Finland, like Alaska, as these have a great influence on some of the factors you mentioned (alcoholism, suicides...).

Suicide Rate:
Finland is at 28.8 for male suicide rate, but Alaska is at over 30.
http://health.hss.state.ak.us/suicidepr ... gender.htm
Estonia has 37,9.

Divorce rate:
Alaska has a divorce rate of 5.5, Finland half of that
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS2.shtml
Estonia has 3.2.

Murder rate
Alaska has 9.1 in 1995, Finland 3.24
http://justice.uaa.alaska.edu/forum/f14 ... _homi.html
http://thegreenman.net.au/mt/archives/000055.html
Estonia has 28.8.

Unemployement rate
Alaska 7,6, Finland 9-10%
http://almis.labor.state.ak.us/?PAGEID=67&SUBID=188
Estonia has 8.7.

Alcoholism: I am sorry, but your source talks about children with mobiles, not alcoholics. I didnt find any reliable numbers but I would estimate there are no big differences.

So basicaly the differences are not that big anymore and Finland doesnt look that bad compared to similar regions in the world. Its not the paradise that a lot of people like to see in it, but its also not a hellhole like others like to think. Estonia on the other hand... high suicide, high divorce, high murderrates....

[otyikondo]

So basicaly the differences are not that big anymore and Finland doesnt look that bad compared to similar regions in the world. Its not the paradise that a lot of people like to see in it, but its also not a hellhole like others like to think. Estonia on the other hand... high suicide, high divorce, high murderrates....

Ah, but LOW TAXES!

[dusty_bin]

Pierrot, Mookoo does not hail from Alaska, figures are different in Helsinki to Espoo, or the frozen north. It is not possible to entirely deal in specifics all the time, impossible even for the most anally retentive, we have to deal in generalities. I chose figures, illustrative only, that used similar bases and thus ARE comparitive, to make a point that often things are not quite as they seem upon first glance.
I know exactly what Caroline means when she talks about her early experiences in Oulu in respect of the 'poorer areas' and how hard it was to recognise them. She and I both, now, know the reasons why and what lies behind them. Mookoo may learn, if she stays long enough. Some may never learn.

I was not comparing Estonia with Finland, or anywhere else, that is not where Mookoo lives either now, or, probably, in the near future, it was and is not at issue.

Why would one choose a place with similar climate?
Why not choose a place that uses Finnish as a language, or where VAT rates are the same. These are arbitrary things, except that Mookoo is from the US and comapring her experiences the Lower US and the discussion is comparing Finland and the US.

There are plenty of references to alcoholism, the cite was not the best, but it used a similar base to the EB cite and is thus a tad more realistic than some of the others. The point is made however. Most people, including yourself rarely bother to justify their cant with any kind of evidence.

[JMS]

mookoo, in most material measures, most Finns are poor by American standards, in terms of living space per person, calories of food, number and type of household appliances, personal transportation etc etc etc.

Just because you do not see it in the same terms that you are used to does not mean the problems do not exist.

I don't think it'd necessarily be a bad thing if some Americans got less calories... And not having a car and umpteen appliances may be a deliberate choice, not a sign of not having the money to get them. I never really understood why it'd be necessary for everyone in one household to have a car (especially an SUV the size of a train). But of course there are poor people in Finland, and I don't think anyone is trying to deny that - I just think there's a considerable difference between dodgy areas in Finland and dodgy areas in America, and in Finland the poor seem to do better than the poor in America.