First off, I wonder why the same divorce page you page has the US having a divorce rate of almost 5.0 and Finland less than 2.0 (per 1000 population per year). And also, you are trying to make a point with the murder rate ... but I am not sure what it is since US is still clearly much higher. However, I am keen to the technique of using well chosen statistics (or not so well chosen in your case Dusty) to try to prove a point (I have spent the past 4 years studying theoretical mathematics). But those are just numbers, and numbers don't tell the whole story. And, NO, generalities are not the way to go about it.
Each person has certain things in their life that they consider important. You, maybe its important for you to live in a country with a low male suicide rate. For me, I am not even male ... so I don't see how it really relates to my life. I like living here, it looks nice, I don't mind cold weather, having a new car every 3 years is not important to me, I don't mind paying taxes in exchange for something like guaranteed health care (especially after growing up with no health care what-so-ever) and free education for my future children, I like having places to walk and ride bikes everywhere, I like the nice selection of bread at the grocery store, and more importantly, I like being with my sweetheat.
Sorry! I still like it here and I'm pretty sure I will continue to like it well into the future! Throw out all the "facts" and figures you want to! However, I wonder why any of you are still here if you think Finland is so horrible. This argument is like trying to decide who has a better wife based on how tall she is and her hair color. Everyone likes something different. So, whats the point here? If you are trying to get me to realize that every place has flaws ... DUH. But the only flaws that count are the ones that matter to each person! If I don't care what the male suicide rate is, I'm not gonna get all bent out of shape over it if it happens to be higher (And I happen to agree with Pierrot's more propper comparison between Finland and Alaska because it takes seasonal affectiveness disorder [SAD] into account)
Hyvää payvää from Mexico again.
JMS wrote:I don't think it'd necessarily be a bad thing if some Americans got less calories...dusty_bin wrote:mookoo, in most material measures, most Finns are poor by American standards, in terms of living space per person, calories of food, number and type of household appliances, personal transportation etc etc etc.
Just because you do not see it in the same terms that you are used to does not mean the problems do not exist.And not having a car and umpteen appliances may be a deliberate choice, not a sign of not having the money to get them. I never really understood why it'd be necessary for everyone in one household to have a car (especially an SUV the size of a train). But of course there are poor people in Finland, and I don't think anyone is trying to deny that - I just think there's a considerable difference between dodgy areas in Finland and dodgy areas in America, and in Finland the poor seem to do better than the poor in America.
Well said JMS!
IMO it is a percentages and numbers effect.
e.g. If 2% of American population (over 290 million) are below the poverty trap level.(what ever that might be)..that = 5.8 million
That is more than the total population of Finland.
The other statistic is when one compared numbers of Millionaires....daaah..in USA that is lot more than the population of Finland also.
I would put the number of genuine down and outs..zero money/destitutes, in Finland, as low as in the 3 zero catogory.
In USA...add 3 or even 4 more zero. So it easier to notice them
and ignore them, just another person's problem,..In Finland when they are seen/found they are "noticed/reported" ..=."Ilta Lehti headlines", and as a result they are usualy helped. Dam Auntie State..as Phil would say..
What one consider "essential" or "neccesary" also varies.
Finns dream of that ideal mökki.
The idea of living in a hut in the forest/with or without lake, but without all mod cons, for an average Ameican..No way Jose!
Standard of life is a difficult one to measure/quantify or qualify.
But I know where I would rather live when offered the choice.
e.g. If 2% of American population (over 290 million) are below the poverty trap level.(what ever that might be)..that = 5.8 million
That is more than the total population of Finland.
The other statistic is when one compared numbers of Millionaires....daaah..in USA that is lot more than the population of Finland also.
I would put the number of genuine down and outs..zero money/destitutes, in Finland, as low as in the 3 zero catogory.
In USA...add 3 or even 4 more zero. So it easier to notice them
and ignore them, just another person's problem,..In Finland when they are seen/found they are "noticed/reported" ..=."Ilta Lehti headlines", and as a result they are usualy helped. Dam Auntie State..as Phil would say..
What one consider "essential" or "neccesary" also varies.
Finns dream of that ideal mökki.
The idea of living in a hut in the forest/with or without lake, but without all mod cons, for an average Ameican..No way Jose!
Standard of life is a difficult one to measure/quantify or qualify.
But I know where I would rather live when offered the choice.
Last edited by PeterF on Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yep, thats what I said by "So basicaly the differences are not that big anymore and Finland doesnt look that bad compared to similar regions in the world. Its not the paradise that a lot of people like to see in it, but its also not a hellhole like others like to think."dusty_bin wrote:Pierrot, Mookoo does not hail from Alaska, figures are different in Helsinki to Espoo, or the frozen north. It is not possible to entirely deal in specifics all the time, impossible even for the most anally retentive, we have to deal in generalities. I chose figures, illustrative only, that used similar bases and thus ARE comparitive, to make a point that often things are not quite as they seem upon first glance.
Climate has an influence on phenomenons like suicides and alcoholism (the long nights leading to depressions...) hence comparing a northern country like Finland to a country with parts like Florida, Texas or California is mixing apple with pears. Alaska's suicide rate is almost twice the nationwide rate. Scandinavia' s suicide rates are much higher then the ones of Western and southern europe. So yes, there is imho a correlation between climate and suicide. Thats why I compared the finnish numbers with a part of mookoo's country with similar traits.dusty_bin wrote:Why would one choose a place with similar climate?
Why not choose a place that uses Finnish as a language, or where VAT rates are the same. These are arbitrary things, except that Mookoo is from the US and comapring her experiences the Lower US and the discussion is comparing Finland and the US.
You dont think so, thats your right, but you dont have to denigrate whose who do unless you can prove your point with facts.
I justified every single of my "cants" with a source, and unlike others, I dont take an article from a satirical website about the percentage of young people having mobiles to make my point about alcoholism.dusty_bin wrote:There are plenty of references to alcoholism, the cite was not the best, but it used a similar base to the EB cite and is thus a tad more realistic than some of the others. The point is made however. Most people, including yourself rarely bother to justify their cant with any kind of evidence.
From your "source": "They have the highest divorce rate in the world (58 percent of all marriages end in divorce), one of the highest alcoholism rates (one in ten drinks too much), and they’re ranked number two in suicides per capita."
Now the facts: Finland is the 8th concerning the %of marriages ended by divorce, Finland is number 10 on the suicide-list - not 2nd.
Divorces: http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml
Suicide: http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prev ... ull_en.pdf , page 186-87.
So thats already 2 errors out of 3 statements. Thats why i have my doubts about the whole thing.
All I asked for was some kind of numbers for the alcoholism. I dont doubt that alcoholism itself is a problem in Finland, but I would be very sceptical about this statement about 10% "drinking too much". Half of europe is "drinking too much" every weekend
I just found a very interesting document:
http://www.ias.org.uk/factsheets/harm-ukeu.pdf
It gives a mixt picture: although Finland is placed in the last quarter for average alcohol consumption (7,1 l/year compared to Luxembourgs 12 l), and average drinking patterns, they have the most "harms" during the drinking , the mortality due to alcoholism seems below average (page 6), the mortality due to liver cirrhosis is well below Germany, Denmark, Austria and southern europe except Greece (page 10), yet the mortality rate from explicitely alcohol related causes is, with 28, over double the value of the second country (Sweden with 14). I guess the last number includes also all accidents involved while being under the influence of alcohol.
Ok, that took me long enough, back to work
Here in Finland, I have done everything I can to blend-in with the Finns, I've changed my hair color, wore differnet clothes, got different
mookoo wrote:Each person has certain things in their life that they consider important. You, maybe its important for you to live in a country with a low male suicide rate. For me, I am not even male ... so I don't see how it really relates to my life. I like living here, it looks nice, I don't mind cold weather, having a new car every 3 years is not important to me, I don't mind paying taxes in exchange for something like guaranteed health care (especially after growing up with no health care what-so-ever) and free education for my future children, I like having places to walk and ride bikes everywhere, I like the nice selection of bread at the grocery store, and more importantly, I like being with my sweetheat.
I am a man and i also dont really care about male suicide rates. (although from a strict darwinian point of view more male suicides = less concurrence
)Its really a matter of preferences and what you like, and Finland offers me at the moment what I like.
It may be possible that this will change in 2, 5 or 10 years, but I came here because I chose to do so.
So Meksikosuomen, if you really want to go to Finland, try it (Best over some uni thing - PHD, Postdoc). Try to learn just a few basics of finnish before landing in Helsinki
If you can afford it, come first on a tourist visa, have a look around and talk with universities. Its much better to talk 1 on 1 directly with the people then over the phone ("i dont speak english") and try to find a place at a uni like that. Then you would have time to get to know finnish day-to-day life with its good and bad sides and decide if you like it nor not.
Here in Finland, I have done everything I can to blend-in with the Finns, I've changed my hair color, wore differnet clothes, got different
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Hank W.
- The Motorhead
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OK, lets put on some Elvis in the bacground:
As the snow flies
On a cold and gray Vantaa mornin’
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghetto
And his mama cries
And read the Helsingin Sanomat:
Insecurity is driving families with children away from apartment areas
Insecurity, disturbances of public order, and social problems in apartment areas are among the reasons for families with children in the Helsinki region to consider moving away. As many as half of these families are considering change of residence, according to a recent survey financed by the Academy of Finland and conducted by a group of researchers from the National Research and Development Centre for Welfare and Health (STAKES), the City of Helsinki Urban Facts, and the University of Helsinki.
The survey was carried out among the residents of the Helsinki metropolitan area, and the number of responses was 10,000. One in three respondents who were planning to move away wanted a safer environment for their children. Furthermore, they wanted to have a bigger home - preferably in a quiet residential district predominated by single-family houses and surrounded by nature. According to researchers Matti Kortteinen, Martti Tuominen, and Mari Vaattovaara, residents of apartment areas report disturbances as much as five times more frequently than those living in single-family residential districts.
On the other hand, according to a recent international survey, the Helsinki metropolitan area was found to be among the safest cities, enjoying an exceptionally even socio-economic spread. However, local residents do not find it pleasant or safe to go shopping in malls among beer-swilling gangs, drug users, and mental patients who have been left outside institutional care. Matters like transport connections or municipal and commercial services were not found by the researchers to be significant factors in the desire to move. The findings will be published in an article by the authors in the next issue of STAKES's periodical Yhteiskuntapolitiikka (Social Policy).
As the snow flies
On a cold and gray Vantaa mornin’
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghetto
And his mama cries
And read the Helsingin Sanomat:
Insecurity is driving families with children away from apartment areas
Insecurity, disturbances of public order, and social problems in apartment areas are among the reasons for families with children in the Helsinki region to consider moving away. As many as half of these families are considering change of residence, according to a recent survey financed by the Academy of Finland and conducted by a group of researchers from the National Research and Development Centre for Welfare and Health (STAKES), the City of Helsinki Urban Facts, and the University of Helsinki.
The survey was carried out among the residents of the Helsinki metropolitan area, and the number of responses was 10,000. One in three respondents who were planning to move away wanted a safer environment for their children. Furthermore, they wanted to have a bigger home - preferably in a quiet residential district predominated by single-family houses and surrounded by nature. According to researchers Matti Kortteinen, Martti Tuominen, and Mari Vaattovaara, residents of apartment areas report disturbances as much as five times more frequently than those living in single-family residential districts.
On the other hand, according to a recent international survey, the Helsinki metropolitan area was found to be among the safest cities, enjoying an exceptionally even socio-economic spread. However, local residents do not find it pleasant or safe to go shopping in malls among beer-swilling gangs, drug users, and mental patients who have been left outside institutional care. Matters like transport connections or municipal and commercial services were not found by the researchers to be significant factors in the desire to move. The findings will be published in an article by the authors in the next issue of STAKES's periodical Yhteiskuntapolitiikka (Social Policy).
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
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meksikosuomen
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- Location: where the sheep have no name
if i could put a bunch of unsatisfied suomalainens or expatriated people living in finland in an airplane, bring them to mexico and obligate them to live in here for the rest of their lives, living of course, in the same conditions such as the most of us!!,,,, the mexican suicide rate for both male and females would raise to heaven,,,hahahaha,,, feel lucky for being in the other side of the world my friends, im serious,,my brother was rubbered yesterday in the bus,, he was about to die because the burglar shot his gun several times,, just for intimidating to any possible hero you know!!! you could say,, well everybody could have an experience like that,,, but not 6 or 7 times a year!!!!.
And talking about the other "problems" like suicide, alcoholism, etc,etc,etc,, well, at least i will have some things that makes me feel like in home.
And finally,,im serious, i swear you, its even better to work cleaning toilettes, "in a fish factory"(Hank ) paying lots and lots of taxes, or many other things, and being part of a well developed and well stablishied society such as the finnish, even with all the problems that you have been talking about, that living in here,,((( if you dont believe me,, lets do an exchange 
)))))
Hank, at least, you can drive a car,,,i expect as "cute" as one showed in your photo´s,No, you need to stay here 30 years and drive the same car 20 of them while the politicians raise the taxes and drive in taxis before you start to appreciate Finland.
And talking about the other "problems" like suicide, alcoholism, etc,etc,etc,, well, at least i will have some things that makes me feel like in home.
JMS,, im agree with you,, you can have lots of non material satisfactions, even if you have enough money to buy a SUV, or maybe an Audi,I never really understood why it'd be necessary for everyone in one household to have a car (especially an SUV the size of a train).
Mookoo,,,why do you always have the right answer in the right moment??(And I happen to agree with Pierrot's more propper comparison between Finland and Alaska because it takes seasonal affectiveness disorder [SAD] into account)
Pierrot,, thanks, Yeah man,, i ll do it,, im taking my first steps with the "tavataan taas" web page, i will continue saving and saving money for paying a finnish summer school for foreigners, i´ll keep doing everything that could be helpful for me.So Meksikosuomen, if you really want to go to Finland, try it (Best over some uni thing - PHD, Postdoc). Try to learn just a few basics of finnish before landing in Helsinki
If you can afford it, come first on a tourist visa, have a look around and talk with universities. Its much better to talk 1 on 1 directly with the people then over the phone ("i dont speak english") and try to find a place at a uni like that. Then you would have time to get to know finnish day-to-day life with its good and bad sides and decide if you like it nor not.
And finally,,im serious, i swear you, its even better to work cleaning toilettes, "in a fish factory"(Hank
) paying lots and lots of taxes, or many other things, and being part of a well developed and well stablishied society such as the finnish, even with all the problems that you have been talking about, that living in here,,((( if you dont believe me,, lets do an exchange )))))
""Mynna tachton gemasti spuhu somen gelen muta emyna dayda""
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meksikosuomen
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:27 pm
- Location: where the sheep have no name
And just being clear enough,,, take all those problems that you have been talking about, multiplicate them twice, and add pollution, corruption(the second most corrupt country in all the universe)), rubbering, murders, drugs, political problems, poverty, analphabetism, people being kidnapped everytime and everywhere((not just the rich people is kidnapped in here, they can take you and then asking for $1000 dollars or less to liberate you)) the police and the crime working in the same team, no more than 5 or 6 well stablishied ""public"" universities(((i have my doubts about "well stablishied" but......))) no social benefit programs, unemployment???? almost half of the peopleable to work are unemployed,,,even whit doctorates and all that kind of degrees!!!!!(((the president of AMD, is a mexican, and he never was able to found an employment in here before joining to his current company,, in that way im lucky enough,, i work in a little pet hospital, earning something like 350 or 400 dollars a month, not so bad for a student,))))and forget about a payment for the unemployed ones, public medical services??no comment,,,,,,and one of the lowest levels in elementary education according to the OCDE,,(((Finland has the best level according to the OCDE too))am i forgetting something???oh, yes ,,and guess??? yeah ,, we pay VERY HIGH TAXES!!!!! 
My uncles lived in London for almost 10 years in the 80´s, i dont know how many does London have changed since then, but they use to say that there is a QUITE big diference between London and Mexico pääkaupunki,talking about development, culture and other things, (((anybody from London???))) then they visited almost all europe, including Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark, and they talk in the same way of Finland, even with the fact that they visited Suomi in the earlier 90´s, during the time of the Finnish economic troubles.
The same with my Aunt that is currently living in Spain,,and another aunt that had a british boyfriend and lived in Liverpool for 2 years,,and a close relative that get married with an Spanish citizen and lives in Madrid((( whats wrong with my family???? it must be the genes!!!!
))))they all talk that whole Europe is by far a better option for living than my poor Mexico. 
I expect that know you can understand me clearer, and i will ask you something guys, please, be frank,,, even with all the bunch of problems,,, isnt Finland a great place to live??
Hank,,, Helsinki, Espoo, Turku, Lahti, Tampere, Oulu, Nokia,wherever you wish, anyway, with or without snow,,,
My uncles lived in London for almost 10 years in the 80´s, i dont know how many does London have changed since then, but they use to say that there is a QUITE big diference between London and Mexico pääkaupunki,talking about development, culture and other things, (((anybody from London???))) then they visited almost all europe, including Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark, and they talk in the same way of Finland, even with the fact that they visited Suomi in the earlier 90´s, during the time of the Finnish economic troubles.
The same with my Aunt that is currently living in Spain,,and another aunt that had a british boyfriend and lived in Liverpool for 2 years,,and a close relative that get married with an Spanish citizen and lives in Madrid((( whats wrong with my family???? it must be the genes!!!!
))))they all talk that whole Europe is by far a better option for living than my poor Mexico. I expect that know you can understand me clearer, and i will ask you something guys, please, be frank,,, even with all the bunch of problems,,, isnt Finland a great place to live??
Hank,,, Helsinki, Espoo, Turku, Lahti, Tampere, Oulu, Nokia,wherever you wish, anyway, with or without snow,,,
""Mynna tachton gemasti spuhu somen gelen muta emyna dayda""
It certailnly is for me! And even those mentined "problems" are not really that big, I don't even mind the high taxes so muchmeksikosuomen wrote:and i will ask you something guys, please, be frank,,, even with all the bunch of problems,,, isnt Finland a great place to live??
Well I guess it's good to get realistic view of what Finland is like, but it seems you have already considered most of it and have it in perspective, so I can only say good luck!
Now some other topic, what advice do you have for us residing in Finland in case we wanted to visit Mexico on a holiday? I though of going there sometimes, but now you got me a bit scared...
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meksikosuomen
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:27 pm
- Location: where the sheep have no name
Well dreamer,, there are of course really good places for tourists to visit in Mexico, specially in both Atlantic and Pacific coast, i mean, the beach!!,,,, specially in the yucatan peninsula,, and if you dont want beach, there are lots of world class resorts and hotels in all the country,, i dont suggest you to make a trip on your own, is better to be in a group or in a scheduled tour, and i strongly recomend you to visit only those places that are specially for the visitors and that have enough survailance,,if you follow these advices im sure you will enjoy your trip, Mexico can be a hard place to live in, but there are still many worth things to consider, most of the people are quite hospitable with foreigners((specially those with enough dollars or euros in the wallet )) and there are wonderful landscapes, handcraft and lots of picturesque places,and take this advice: KEEP OUT from Mexico city, im serious, unless you have a kind of Indiana Jones spirit there are thousands of better places to visit in this country!!!!
but if you still want to visit the monster,, well,, "tervutuloa" to the jungle
)) and there are wonderful landscapes, handcraft and lots of picturesque places,and take this advice: KEEP OUT from Mexico city, im serious, unless you have a kind of Indiana Jones spirit there are thousands of better places to visit in this country!!!!but if you still want to visit the monster,, well,, "tervutuloa" to the jungle
""Mynna tachton gemasti spuhu somen gelen muta emyna dayda""
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dr_pgonzalez
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:25 pm
- Location: Formerly USA, now Espoo
OK amigo, I have lived in South America for several years and in the US for many years as well and now Finland, so I feel qualified to throw my hat in the discussion.
For starters, Hank is right on in saying that Europeans and Nordic folks have priority becasue, naturally, they are members of the EU and are Europeans. You (and I) are not.
If I had to make choose between the US and Finland for job opportinities without having a permit on either, I take the US any day.
If I had a job permit and it was blue collar, I'd take Finland. I think the social safety net is better here.
If I had a job permit and was a professional I'd take the US, because you can make about 2X the money there.
If I was a millionaire and had money to burn, I'd take Finland. This is the best place to live if you can afford it.
I notice a lot of people complaining about living here. It is not easy, but I find that those that do, never stop comparing to what they used to have back at their home countries.
Moving to a new country requires one to accept and live as all others do and refrain from comparing. If you do you will never integrate and come to appreciate the things that a new country has to offer.
Now I do have the advantage of picking up and moving back to the US if and when I get tired of being here, but so far I am learning to like it and try to associate myself with positive Finns (yes there are plenty of them here ) and avoid bitter expats as much as I can.
buena suerte
For starters, Hank is right on in saying that Europeans and Nordic folks have priority becasue, naturally, they are members of the EU and are Europeans. You (and I) are not.
If I had to make choose between the US and Finland for job opportinities without having a permit on either, I take the US any day.
If I had a job permit and it was blue collar, I'd take Finland. I think the social safety net is better here.
If I had a job permit and was a professional I'd take the US, because you can make about 2X the money there.
If I was a millionaire and had money to burn, I'd take Finland. This is the best place to live if you can afford it.
I notice a lot of people complaining about living here. It is not easy, but I find that those that do, never stop comparing to what they used to have back at their home countries.
Moving to a new country requires one to accept and live as all others do and refrain from comparing. If you do you will never integrate and come to appreciate the things that a new country has to offer.
Now I do have the advantage of picking up and moving back to the US if and when I get tired of being here, but so far I am learning to like it and try to associate myself with positive Finns (yes there are plenty of them here ) and avoid bitter expats as much as I can.
buena suerte
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into a jet engine
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ilikepeanutbutter
- Posts: 1521
- Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:10 pm
Hank, that is horribleHank W. wrote:OK, lets put on some Elvis in the bacground:
As the snow flies
On a cold and gray Vantaa mornin’
A poor little baby child is born
In the ghetto
And his mama cries
And read the Helsingin Sanomat:
Insecurity is driving families with children away from apartment areas
Insecurity, disturbances of public order, and social problems in apartment areas are among the reasons for families with children in the Helsinki region to consider moving away. As many as half of these families are considering change of residence, according to a recent survey financed by the Academy of Finland and conducted by a group of researchers from the National Research and Development Centre for Welfare and Health (STAKES), the City of Helsinki Urban Facts, and the University of Helsinki.
The survey was carried out among the residents of the Helsinki metropolitan area, and the number of responses was 10,000. One in three respondents who were planning to move away wanted a safer environment for their children. Furthermore, they wanted to have a bigger home - preferably in a quiet residential district predominated by single-family houses and surrounded by nature. According to researchers Matti Kortteinen, Martti Tuominen, and Mari Vaattovaara, residents of apartment areas report disturbances as much as five times more frequently than those living in single-family residential districts.
On the other hand, according to a recent international survey, the Helsinki metropolitan area was found to be among the safest cities, enjoying an exceptionally even socio-economic spread. However, local residents do not find it pleasant or safe to go shopping in malls among beer-swilling gangs, drug users, and mental patients who have been left outside institutional care. Matters like transport connections or municipal and commercial services were not found by the researchers to be significant factors in the desire to move. The findings will be published in an article by the authors in the next issue of STAKES's periodical Yhteiskuntapolitiikka (Social Policy).
but my husband said that Danny singing this in a white jump suit sounds good lol Kat
JMS wrote:
And not having a car and umpteen appliances may be a deliberate choice, not a sign of not having the money to get them.
...or it could be a way of rationalizing for not having the money to get them
If you can't have it, a good way to deal with it is to convince yourself that you don't need it (I don't mean "you" personally..I mean any random individual)Former expat in Finland, now living in New Hampshire USA.
mookoo wrote:For me, I am not even male ... so I don't see how it really relates to my life. If I don't care what the male suicide rate is, I'm not gonna get all bent out of shape over it if it happens to be higher
But isn't your husband male?
I can say that in my case, my husband may think he's very different from other Finnish men, but there are some "typical" things that do influence him.
Former expat in Finland, now living in New Hampshire USA.