Common-law EU citizen moving to Finland

[alpn]

Hi there,

Could someone help on an issue? Our heads are blowing up because the byrocrazy is overruling everything. My common-law wife is an EU resident and she lives in Germany, so she does not need to apply for a living permission. I'm Finn by myself. I'm currently in service so I don't have an appartment by myself. We're planning to move together when my service ends in next year - February.

However we found it out more difficult:

We've tried to look up appartments. They ask Finnish personal ID number for my common-law wife even if she is a german resident and doesn't have an one. I do have it - she does not have. But with getting this ID number, according to KELA, she must have resident where she lives. So how on earth she should get a Finnish ID number, when we need an appartment together first (which is needed by KELA) and personal ID number which is needed by rental companies? Any advices from people who have come with family reasons to Finland?

[acwan]

This baffles me but why wouldn't they be willing to rent to you if you explain that she is in Germany and will get an id once she moves here?

Alternatively, can you have the apartment just under your name for now and wait to add her name after she has her id (if it is such a big deal for the landlords?)

[alpn]

This baffles me but why wouldn't they be willing to rent to you if you explain that she is in Germany and will get an id once she moves here?

Alternatively, can you have the apartment just under your name for now and wait to add her name after she has her id (if it is such a big deal for the landlords?)

Yes, well I've looked city houses (Espoo + Helsinki), VVO so far. All do require it. It is basic fact in Finland, that you rarely get a cheap appartment by yourself which has two rooms from house companies I mentioned before. They don't rent it for one person only, who does not have much income. Of course maybe I could explain this to private landlords, but it is the other thing.

[miti]

Hi alpn,

is your wife a German resident or a German citizen? in other words - does she have a EU passport? That could make a lot of difference when she arrives and could also play a roll before she arrives (if she is just an EU resident but doesn't have the citizenship things would be a bit more complicated and she might have to apply for residence permit before she arrives).

Assuming she does have a EU passport, maybe she could come here for a few weeks couple of months before her actual moving and register at the poliisi and maistraatti, giving an address of your relatives or something like that and then get her social security number. I am not sure it could work (especially if she wants to import stuff from Germany like a car it is important to check how quick she should register it after arrival to Finland) but might be worth checking.

Good luck!

Miti.

[alpn]

Hi alpn,

is your wife a German resident or a German citizen? in other words - does she have a EU passport? That could make a lot of difference when she arrives and could also play a roll before she arrives (if she is just an EU resident but doesn't have the citizenship things would be a bit more complicated and she might have to apply for residence permit before she arrives).

Assuming she does have a EU passport, maybe she could come here for a few weeks couple of months before her actual moving and register at the poliisi and maistraatti, giving an address of your relatives or something like that and then get her social security number. I am not sure it could work (especially if she wants to import stuff from Germany like a car it is important to check how quick she should register it after arrival to Finland) but might be worth checking.

Good luck!

Miti.

miki, thank you for your useful advices.

Sorry I was a bit unclear in previous posts. She is german citizen and therefor I assume she has EU passport as well. Yes, well if I get her here that way - there would be an one problem. Doesn't she need to say why she is coming to Finland? According to law, we're just regarded as common-law wife and husband when we live together. I'm talking about http://www.uvi.fi/netcomm/content.asp?p ... anguage=EN
Is she under Finnish social system in that case if she had lived in with my relatives? Would she also loose her social benefits in Germany if she register here? She is getting student grant at the moment in Germany. So it is kinda a big step to come here to look work for some months ( I doubt she can't even find a job so quickly here, so she needs to get somekinda wellfare money) and then start studies again in uni after working or being jobless for some months. It's kinda tricky, because every goverment site which you can find tells diffrent. By being Finnish by myself, I really think that moving to Finland is a lot of paperwork. Nothing else here needs that much of byrocrazy I wonder how parlament will succeess on their mission to get 100 000 immigrants here when it is so hard - even from EU citizen.

[superiorinferior]

Why not just move in as a single occupant... Then she gets registered at your address when she arrives... Then she gets her KELA number.

Simple.

Oops.. read just now that you want subsidized housing...

Not so simple. Guess she needs to be a guest at a residence and then apply for subsidized (VVO) housing.

[Hank W.]

Yes, but you cannot claim residence that easy unless you are working or studying in Finland, There is some stuff like the integration benefit for immigrants; but that is akin to the "työmarkkinatuki" so not much.

And getting any benefits isn't that easy either, as the requirement is for most stuff one has worked here, like 2 years before the student handout for example (and a lot of other small print).

Go to http://www.kela.fi and look

[dave071061]

Yes, well I've looked city houses (Espoo + Helsinki), VVO so far. All do require it.

I'll have to check this with my better half, but when we first came back over from the UK we moved into a VVO apartment and I didn't have a SS number at that time. I will ask her how we got around it and let you know.

[jk]

miki, thank you for your useful advices.

Sorry I was a bit unclear in previous posts. She is german citizen and therefor I assume she has EU passport as well. Yes, well if I get her here that way - there would be an one problem. Doesn't she need to say why she is coming to Finland? According to law, we're just regarded as common-law wife and husband when we live together. I'm talking about http://www.uvi.fi/netcomm/content.asp?p ... anguage=EN
Is she under Finnish social system in that case if she had lived in with my relatives? Would she also loose her social benefits in Germany if she register here? She is getting student grant at the moment in Germany.

I'm not sure about the uvi-link there. I thought it works for a NON-EU-family member of another EU-IMMIGRANT living already in Finland. But I might be wrong... I think that as a German EU-citizen she shouldn't have to need this method to right to stay in Finland.

http://www.uvi.fi/netcomm/content.asp?path=8,2472,2491

This is a link for family members of Finnish citizens.

[jk]

Hi there,

Could someone help on an issue? Our heads are blowing up because the byrocrazy is overruling everything. My common-law wife is an EU resident and she lives in Germany, so she does not need to apply for a living permission. I'm Finn by myself. I'm currently in service so I don't have an appartment by myself. We're planning to move together when my service ends in next year - February.

However we found it out more difficult:

We've tried to look up appartments. They ask Finnish personal ID number for my common-law wife even if she is a german resident and doesn't have an one.

Actually I was thinking about asking if anyone knows where to complain officially about this? I mean I think this "register of ones right to reside in Finland" - if it is just a simple registration and every EU citizen automatically has the right, how can it take a month or more to do that? And how can every d*** other burocrate (Maistraatti, KELA, työvoimatoimisto, YTV etc.) depends on that before they register it? I mean, they all even talk about "residence permit" and I have corrected them like a hundred times with "excuse me, but it's not a residence permit, it doesn't even exists for EU citizens, she's just waiting for a registration of her right." And they say "yes I know but that's how we call it here..."

I think the EU directive is not being correctly followed here.

I mean if työvoimatoimisto (unemployment office) does not want her as a client before she has an identity number... I think that's just plain crap. I understand perfectly that the authorities don't want to PAY her anything but couldn't they just leave that to KELA (social security)? That's how they bounce the ball to eachother all the time! You ask something in KELA and they answer: "We'll have to see what the työvoimatoimisto board has to say about this." Ask something in työvoimatoimisto and it's: "You see dear, "the payer" (KELA) will decide this."

So now, while we are waiting for the ID number, for example, she can't have the resident's regional travel card. Needs an ID number for that... YTV doesn't give that with just the talonkirjaote (house register) as a proof that one lives here. So the price is a "little" higher if she wants to have the monthly ticket.

Haven't gone to any bank to talk about opening an account yet. Knowing the Finnish banks, they'd probably die of laughter... Don't want to have that on my conscience.

And I'm just wondering what happens if an EU citizen come to Finland with the E-303 formula? To get the unemployment benefits from the country of origin (via KELA, I guess), one has to register her/himself at the unemployment office in seven days after arriving. So NOW it is possible to be a client of the työvoimatoimisto even if one certainly will not have the ID number?? Hmmm...

And the maistraatti is a joke also: I read the fancy booklets they gave me at the työvoimatoimisto last winter, it says that the muuttoilmoitus (notice of moving in) has to be in maistraatti made IN A WEEK after arriving to Finland. So we weren't sure wheter some formula would have to be filled for them, even when the residence perm... err, the registration of the right to residence and therefore the ID number is still weeks away and we went there. The answer was, yes we can do that but it goes straight to öö-mappi (= is useless) because she does not have the ID number. Great. Why do they even print that, then?

One positive thing, though: About the VVO housing, I got already offered a VVO flat for rent. My fiancee is Spanish and she just got here. She's waiting that the police finds a folder where to register her right to live here... I filled the online formula before she even was here. Couldn't put the co-habitant into the application but I explained the situation in the free text part. Didn't seem to bother them because I got a call in like four days... I don't know how you tried to look for the VVO flats, if you just tried it online, do what I did. But if you called or actually went to their office and their said that an ID number is needed, it's more complicated I guess.

[alpn]

Yes, but you cannot claim residence that easy unless you are working or studying in Finland, There is some stuff like the integration benefit for immigrants; but that is akin to the "työmarkkinatuki" so not much.

And getting any benefits isn't that easy either, as the requirement is for most stuff one has worked here, like 2 years before the student handout for example (and a lot of other small print).

Go to http://www.kela.fi and look

The laws are diffrent for non EU citizens and EU citizens. By sitating Ulkomaalaislaki (Luku 10 - Euroopan unionin kansalaisen ja häneen rinnastettavan oleskelu): 159 §:

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/alkup/2004/20040301

Ulkomaalaislaki is defining that when EU citizen comes by family reasons - they don't need a job, in every other reasons they do. When you come with family reasons then you just have to show that they have enough money for living and a health insurance.

I wonder how you should be able to show that you have enough money for living?:)

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Unionin kansalaisen oleskeluoikeuden rekisteröinti

Unionin kansalaisen tulee rekisteröidä oleskeluoikeutensa viimeistään silloin, kun hänen oikeutensa oleskella Suomessa 158 §:n perusteella päättyy. Oleskeluoikeuden rekisteröinnin edellytyksenä on, että unionin kansalainen täyttää 155 ja 156 §:ssä säädetyt edellytykset sekä että:

1) hän harjoittaa taloudellista toimintaa palkattuna työntekijänä tai itsenäisenä ammatinharjoittajana;

2) hänellä on riittävät varat ja tarvittaessa sairausvakuutus, jotta hän ei oleskeluaikanaan joudu Suomessa turvautumaan toimeentulotuesta annetussa laissa säädettyyn toimeentulotukeen tai muihin siihen rinnastettaviin etuuksiin; taikka

3) hänet on hyväksytty Suomessa olevan oppilaitoksen opiskelijaksi ja hänellä on riittävät varat oleskelua varten ja tarvittaessa sairausvakuutus.

Unionin kansalaisen perheenjäsenen oleskeluoikeus rekisteröidään, jos myös perheenjäsen on unionin kansalainen.

Unionin kansalaisen muun omaisen oleskeluoikeus rekisteröidään, jos myös muu omainen on unionin kansalainen ja jos oleskeluoikeuden rekisteröinnin epääminen olisi kohtuutonta sen vuoksi, että asianomaisten on tarkoitus Suomessa jatkaa aikaisemmin viettämäänsä kiinteää perhe-elämää tai että omainen on täysin riippuvainen Suomessa asuvasta omaisesta.

Edellä 1 momentin 2 tai 3 kohdassa tarkoitetun unionin kansalaisen perheenjäsenen ja muun omaisen oleskeluoikeuden rekisteröinnin edellytyksenä on, että omaisella on riittävät varat oleskelua varten ja tarvittaessa sairausvakuutus. Pohjoismaan kansalaisen perheenjäsenen oleskeluoikeus rekisteröidään kuitenkin, vaikka hänen toimeentulonsa ei olisi turvattu. Pohjoismaan kansalaisen muun omaisen oleskeluoikeuden rekisteröinnin edellytyksenä on, että hänellä on riittävät varat oleskelua varten ja tarvittaessa sairausvakuutus.

[alpn]

I think the EU directive is not being correctly followed here.

Just to remind that directives are guidelines where country should adjust it's own laws in time which is said on directive. I don't know which directive you are referring to, but Ulkomaalaislaki is great guideline to find out. Basicly can you find every information about registration there.

Yes, this is byrocrazy, but only thing which helps very much in Finland, is to refer to laws. When you know how the law is and you show them to it, they must do what it is said. Because those clueless office workers (maybe exception 20% of them) have not got a single clue how to deal with exceptions.

YH-yhtymät / Sato promised to do now contract with us. I already was given an appartment with-in a week from YH-yhtymät, that's great news But we need appartment for next year.

Just to remind you that be careful when applying for goods from goverment. Specially with toimeentulotuki. I'm referign to section 10 of 167§: Unionin kansalaisen ja hänen perheenjäsenensä sekä muun omaisensa käännyttämisen perusteet.

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167 §
Unionin kansalaisen ja hänen perheenjäsenensä sekä muun omaisensa käännyttämisen perusteet

Unionin kansalainen taikka hänen perheenjäsenensä tai muu omaisensa voidaan käännyttää, jos hänen oleskeluoikeuttaan ei ole rekisteröity tai hänelle ei ole myönnetty oleskelulupakorttia sekä jos:

1) hän ei täytä 155 ja 156 §:ssä säädettyjä maahantulon edellytyksiä;

2) hän on pian maahantulon jälkeen joutunut turvautumaan toimeentulotuesta annetussa laissa säädettyyn toimeentulotukeen tai muihin siihen rinnastettaviin etuuksiin häneltä edellytettyjen riittävien varojen puuttumisen takia; taikka

3) hänen Suomessa oleskelunsa jatkaminen edellyttäisi oleskeluoikeuden rekisteröimistä tai oleskelulupakortin myöntämistä, mutta hän ei täytä oleskeluoikeuden rekisteröimisen tai oleskelulupakortin myöntämisen edellytyksiä.

The second thing clears that if your co-habitant have applied for toimeentulotuki (social welfare money or something other related to that) after becoming to this country, she can be looked as she does not have money to live here. Therefor they can send her back. So be sure not to apply this good just when coming to this country.

When you have had successful registry, they cannot cancel the registration with reasons like this.

Good luck!