Savage Dogs

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sinikala
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Post by sinikala » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:51 pm

penelope wrote:Our dog is a retriever and fetching stuff seems to be a natural obsession for her. As soon as she sees someone she knows, she'll go and find something to carry to them (rug, toy, shoe etc), even though we never trained her specifically to do this.
That is true, my folks always had Labs, two of them were pretty bright, so long as you were inside the house you could give them an object and tell them "take it to xxxx" where xxxx was a specific member of the family elsewhere in the house ... and they would deliver it, covered in drool, but delivered it never the less.

These sort of traits have been manipulated in quite interesting ways, I read about a kennel in Germany that crossed a Rottweiler with a St Bernard.... it could rip your arm off, then go and fetch help. Fantastic stuff. :wink:


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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:58 pm

sinikala wrote:kennel in Germany that crossed a Rottweiler with a St Bernard....
You should see my neighbour's kennel...
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Last edited by Hank W. on Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rosamunda
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Post by Rosamunda » Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:22 pm

catfish78 wrote:
I am no dog expert either. In my opinion dogs have natural traits or predisposition's to certain behaviors. However I believe in nurture over nature. I think it takes more than a predisposition to aggression to make a dog attack at will. I think it takes a handler with malice on his/her mind to turn, what is naturally a protective and loyal dog, into a killer.
I wouldn't go as far as to suggest that all these incidents are the result of malice. I think just good old fashioned ignorance is enough to turn a bog-standard rottweiler into a killer. Many owners don't take dog training seriously: I have a neighbour whose puppy did its business in the house for weeks before it figured out that it was supposed to pee outside. Having never had a dog in my life I ordered "Retrievers for Dummies" from Amazon when we got our puppy and followed it to the letter. My dog was house-trained within 10 days of moving in with us 8) .

Education, education, education :wink:

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Muddy Zuk
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Post by Muddy Zuk » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:45 pm

yay another off at the deep end blame the breed response to a terrible accident involving a badly trained, owned dog. i guess people will never stop blaming the breeds for their owners short comings!

I would say sorry but i am not, this drives me mad. Having had dogs all my life of many shapes and sizes. I knew that some i could leave free in the park others that had to be leashed depending on what was around!! Iworked in kennels and the worse bite i received was from a Fox Terrier, infact terriers were the most bitey. do i ask for a ban or cull on these dogs??? no cause the problems came from badly trained examples.

I lost a dog myself because of a drug dealing to55er of a neighbour who's daughter was nipped by my dog after cornering her in OUR garden. i had given her numerous warnings to stay out of our garden and leave the dog alone as she did not want to play anymore. but still i went in the house the kid opened the gate came into our garden and went after the dog when tho dog was in the corner and had no other option she gave a nip. no skin was broken only a red mark but the kid ran off crying, as they do. When i came out the dog was still in the corner loking guilty as she knew she had upset the brat. The dad came storming to my house demanding i beat the dog when i said no there was no point the dog was not at fault and they dog would not learn anything from it as it had happened five minutes ago he promised to return and kill the dog himself. needless to say a barny ensued with his dad holding him back from my house and me. a good thing i must say as he had little chance of coming good from it!

We still had to have the dog put down as he was a proper loose canon and would have done something stupid. infact last i heard he was in tin pail for attempted murder or accessory to it.

OK i am off topic but this is a topic that will light the touch paper every time for me!

By your logic i am sure we should ban all 4x4's in town's perhaps limit speeds to 10mph, make cars from rubber. ban all guns, maybe just ban people from the poor areas of town as thats where the most crime happens? dam this battery going flat! maybe we ban them too? :evil:
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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:16 am

Dunno, I was just reading the article and I just come to the conclusion neither dogs nor kids can be left alone as you can't supervise either properly. The 16-year-old girl was upstairs when the seven-year-old carried the baby outside to stroke the dog. .... And am I the only one that finds the results of the maths in that article peculiar? If the mom is barely 18, and has two kids aged 7 and 6...
Last edited by Hank W. on Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Hank W. » Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:28 am

Muddy Zuk wrote:maybe just ban people from the poor areas of town as thats where the most crime happens
Ban chavs :twisted:
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network_engineer
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Post by network_engineer » Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:39 pm

This is a topic that requires some study for those seriously interested, but briefly and in random order, here goes:

1. Problems of aggression: No, it is not breed specific, but specimen specfic. And since it is largely specimen specific, it has a lot to do with the genetic make-up of the specimen (not the breed per sé).

2. Somebody mentioned proclivity to viciousness: Not true again of the breed, but of the individual specimen.
Was it about two years ago that they put down a Dalmatian in the UK because it bit the three year old (rather badly). The incident as I remember was that the three year old, after seeing the movie 101 Dalmatians wanted a Dalmatian of her own. The grandparents went off to a local rescue and adopted a six year old Dalmatian that had been abandoned. And shortly after the parents left the three year old alone with the six year old Dalmatian bitch - unsupervised. Now, with all this talk about proclivity to viciousness: Dalmatians are usually very well tempered. This combination was a recipe for disaster. Instead of putting down the dog, I would have recommended something nasty for the parents and grandparents, before they got the kid a bear when she demands it after watching Winnie the pooh!
But one thing I do appreciate here on the forum: Some of us did acknowledge that we are not experts in animal behaviour.

Coming back to the topic of proclivity to viciousness: Why do some of the breeds get a worse reputation? I.e. as compared to a nip from a small-sized dog? Solely because some of the dogs, e.g. larger ones can even unwittingly cause greater damage merely due to their sheer size, or bite force. Ask someone who has raised a e.g. Great Dane and a one-year old simultaneously. These dogs, although very friendly and well tempered (generally), take anywhere from 2-3 years to mature mentally. They can create havoc, e.g. by knocking down a one year that is barely able to stand while simply playing and running about. That can cause damage. Imagine a frolicky 2 year old Rottweiler suddenly wanting to playing tug of war with a three year old kid's clothes (i.e. whild the kid is wearing it) or inciting a kid to join its games using its paws (read claws) and mouth (read teeth)!!!

Now, coming to genetic coding - what the writer wrote is kind of true.

BTW, there are no attackers in genes. The best dogs, e.g. patrol and guard dogs are those of the soundest nature and temperance. They don't just bite, or bark without reason. They are not uncontrollably aggressive. These animals have different drives that are used to enhance their concentration and efforts to a particular act. E.g. a play-drive or a chase-drive, i.e. for the opportunity to play with a tug or to chase a ball, they are made to do something, e.g. sniff and inform of a particular smell such as a body (cadaver dogs).

That being said, breeders who breed solely for the money part of it don't care about the characteristics and temperament of the sire and dam. This leads to undesirable qualities in their offspring. More so, a lot of breeders don't know how to pair a prospective owner with the right specimen. Nowadays, a lot of breeders are starting to ask the purpose and recommending the pup/specimen and refusing to sell some pups to owners who they feel they won't be able to handle. Yes, these traits are very recognisable by an informed breeder.

Then comes the training part. Larger dogs, with more powerful jaws and dexterity, need more careful training and obedience training. Then again, not each specimen (irrespective of the breed) is suited to all types of handlers. Dominant dogs are not suited to first time owners or then owners who cannot establish themselves as leaders of the pack. E.g. a very docile, easily subdued dog is of no-use for patrol purposes, but would make an excellent pup for family purposes. And vice versa, a first time owner with a dominant natured dog with a strong will and drive would have more on his hands than he bargained for. Add the size and strength of the dog in question and you can either have a good dog or a perfect nightmare. True, some of the specimens can be in-between in terms of the characteristics mentioned. Each specimen needs recognising and appropriate working with (i.e. training for obedience in particular and pack establishment).

Sadly, less than 10% of the owners know this. And worse even are situations where the dogs are matched up to the wrong kinds of owners!!! And so, it isn't the rotten apple, sadly! Rather some of the uninformed breeders and owners. And very sadly, yes, a "bad" owner/handler is more than enough to turn a dog into a man-killer. Whether the victims succumb, depends largely on the size of the dog and the victim.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards.

--
PS: These are my views and opinions.

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Karhunkoski
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Post by Karhunkoski » Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:55 pm

Interesting that N_E. I'm sure in many cases the weak link is the person, yet the animal gets the blame.

I've watched parents smile sweetly as their little darlings push their fingers into the family dog's bottom, then pull its ears and poke it in the eye. As soon as the dog snarls at the kids, it gets a kick. Some days I really hate parents.
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Muddy Zuk
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Post by Muddy Zuk » Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:42 pm

NOt sure how he is going to read the messages on bebo, i think he was too young for an account?

Well said N_E well put probably far better than mine but my mood was not best when i found the thread so a rant ensued.
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mrjimsfc
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Post by mrjimsfc » Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:49 am

Dogs are marvelous creatures! Most of them are a lot smarter than their owners. I find myself getting out-smarted by my dogs all the time. They know me better than I know myself. :oops:
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network_engineer
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Post by network_engineer » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:49 am

I agree. I tend to be an advocate for the dogs, rather than the owners. :roll:

Anyways, this article (copy of the article here) seems to be a step in the right direction. From the brief idea the article presents, it may be too elementary to control problems such as aggression; but then again I may be wrong as the details have not been furnished. This is certainly a start though. I just wish the starting point would be at the breeders and not once the pet has already been abandoned.

Kind regards.


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