Why was the muslim ok restaurant topic locked?

[biscayne]

Well, it seems that in time honoured tradition, I will have to do the usual and proclaim that I AM NOT A RACIST. Neither am I anti-muslim or anti-jewish or anti anybody. What I am against practices which do not fit in with general modern European culture being forced on Europe by people who are CHOOSING to come here. Regarding kosher, I'm certainly not anti-semetic, and while the rule about never feeding an animal another animal is excellent, I still find the method of killing the animal cruel. Europe has had it's fair share of dodgy practices (witch-burnings, inquisitions etc.) but we have moved on.

[digitalSurgeon]

you guys have a problem with halal meat, but you dont have any with kosher, they are the same thing though

[network_engineer]

Huh?

I am NOT anti-Semitic, or racist in any manner, but I love animals. And so, I beg to differ, only based on what I have seen. While the principles of halal and kosher are similar, the slaughtering practices are VERY different. And yes, I have seen the process. Idea of kosher is to remove all blood from the meat. E.g. kosher, I have seen processes where the animal is been block stunned and after that is hung for the blood is drained out. And even the non-commercial form of kosher, the animal is slaughtered with one slit to the throat, it is over in about 30 seconds. Not so with halal. 30 seconds isn't even close. Halal, I have seen with my eyes and I won't describe. If you think Kosher is cruel, then I have no words to describe the ordeal that begins even before the slaughter.

PS:

1. Cannot confirm but it could be so that a lot of the general negativity from the general population comes from a combination of practices that are followed.
2. And before I forget, it is legal only because the population at large has not directly reflected the process and by the time it is under scrutiny, too late.

[digitalSurgeon]

Huh?

I am NOT anti-Semitic, or racist in any manner, but I love animals. And so, I beg to differ, only based on what I have seen. While the principles of halal and kosher are similar, the slaughtering practices are VERY different. And yes, I have seen the process. Idea of kosher is to remove all blood from the meat. E.g. kosher, I have seen processes where the animal is been block stunned and after that is hung for the blood is drained out. Halal, I have seen with my eyes and I won't describe.

PS:

1. And even the non-commercial form of kosher, the animal is slaughtered with one slit to the throat, it is over in about 30 seconds. Not so with halal. 30 seconds isn't even close.
2. Cannot confirm but it could be so that a lot of the general negativity from the general population comes from a combination of practices that are followed.
3. And before I forget, it is legal only because the population at large has not directly reflected the process and by the time it is under scrutiny, too late.

i dont understand how kosher and halal are different, they seem exactly the same to me.
but any ways most of the halal meat in the world is provided by some danish and dutch companies, so you should talk to them. also their methods of slaughtering halal meat is not much different from non halal meat they stun the animal, exactly the same procedure except a mp3 player is playing arabic verses ... lol

seems like some anti-muslim feelings are with you

[Karhunkoski]

you guys have a problem with halal meat, but you dont have any with kosher, they are the same thing though

I think you'll find that:

a. If you read my post, I criticise kosher meat in the same breath as halal

b. Biscayne did the same in his post, 15 minutes before yours.

[network_engineer]

Nope, no negative feelings except against cruelty - NONE whatsoever!

You are right in what you said:

i dont understand how kosher and halal are different

I am not aware how they are doing it in the countries you mentioned. I have seen the animals tied down in blood of a previous animal while there were chants and the animals eyes popped out from the fear and smell of blood or maybe it was because the guy was standing on its neck!

That is not to say, any torturous methods must be condoned. The way we human beings torture animals as if we own them and the planet is an disgusting.

[Rip]

Halal meat is legal in Finland, so it's acceptable, right?

That is bit so-so. If I have understood correctly, to be truly halal, the animal should have been killed by letting out its blood, without stunning it. There is nothing in the law banning the sale of such meat, but producing it (the act of slaughter) would have been illegal had it been done in Finland.

[Rosamunda]

...yet most Europeans have no qualms about eating and drinking dariy products in large quantites In order for cows to produce milk it is common practice to remove young calves from their mothers and rear them on milk substitues or even slaughter them at a very young age.

The dairy industry in the Western world is hardly a model of ethical farming.

[inkku]

...yet most Europeans have no qualms about eating and drinking dariy products in large quantites In order for cows to produce milk it is common practice to remove young calves from their mothers and rear them on milk substitues or even slaughter them at a very young age.

The dairy industry in the Western world is hardly a model of ethical farming.

I didn't know that . How about organic dairy, does it prohibit that practice?

[lionel]

...yet most Europeans have no qualms about eating and drinking dariy products in large quantites In order for cows to produce milk it is common practice to remove young calves from their mothers and rear them on milk substitues or even slaughter them at a very young age.

The dairy industry in the Western world is hardly a model of ethical farming.

I didn't know that . How about organic dairy, does it prohibit that practice?

How can organic change the fact that you have the calves milk instead of the calf. All organic mean is the animal doesnt get unnecessary medication ie routine antibiotics, gets hay , silage or put on pasture with no unapproved chemicals and gets I think 4 months a year to roam about outside.

You still take the calf away from its mum stick it on replacement milk and get it eating hay and concentrates as soon as possible. Finland is slightly better in that most male calves are sold on to be raised as beef whereas in the UK they are slaughtered at a few days as its not worth the cost of raising them.

[EP]

And if the cow doesn´t have a calf?

[lionel]

And if the cow doesn´t have a calf?

It would presumably have had a calf at some time in the previous year or it wouldnt have any milk. They start to go dry before a year so thats the reason for continual calves. Goats however can be virgin milkers ie no kids involved

[biscayne]

Yes, Penelope has a point about milk and dairy products. There is also an issue surrounding veal. I suppose what is one persons idea of normal practice is another's idea of torture/cruelty. Certainly other/new cultures have the right to religious/cultural freedom in Europe. I do however stick to my idea that as these people are choosing to be in Europe, any practices should be generally acceptable with the context of European culture and should not infringe upon European culture. So, things like female circumcision, honour killings etc. are obviously out.

[Karhunkoski]

.....just wastes money and time.

Yup. And the blame for this lies with the customer, who just wants to buy cheap food. Food-related market reasearch goes like this:

Q. Would you be willing to pay more for the food you feed you family if it meant a higher quality product?
A. Yes answered by around 85%

Q. Would you be willing to pay more for the food you feed you family if it meant better living conditions for animals
A. Yes answered by around 90%

But in reality, 95% consumers will wander into the supermarket and pick up the cheapest product, and spend the difference on life's other essentials such as contintental holidays, playstations and booze.

[Tiwaz]

Yes, much better for animals to freeze outdoors. Cow fur in these southern breeds is not enough to keep them warm outdoors during Finnish winter. They lack sufficiently thick and layered fur. Not to mention the udders which hang nicely on snow.
Have YOU ever tried what frozen snow does to skin?

Oh, but that is something you never bothered to figure out isn't it Cory?
Farmers would not do it if there was no need. Because it is expensive to build shelters for cattle. Warmer the shelter, higher the cost.

Nor do you let else facts remain in the way of spewing nonsense with sensationalist rubbish.

In Finland, animals are slaughtered around age of 8 months at which point they weight around 150kg. Those are NOT cuddly little calves anymore.