moving to Finland ..living with Finn etc etc

[inkku]

However, in most other EU COUNTRIES there aren't the same ridiculous hurdles to not being able to do ANYTHING without an ID number if you are from another EU country...

The ID number has a function: it exists to identify the unique, right person and to protect from identity theft. Could you please give examples what you absolutely cannot do without an ID number in Finland? How I perceive it, you would be deprived from the state subsidised services (which you would not deserve since you didn't contribute to the system), but otherwise i believe you could live in Finland, isn't?

And could you give examples what a foreigner can do eg in the UK without gas bills? For example how to get medical consultation? And could you tell what is required for a foreigner to get a NI number in the UK?

[Pursuivant]

However, in most other EU COUNTRIES there aren't the same ridiculous hurdles to not being able to do ANYTHING without an ID number if you are from another EU country...

Coming from a country where your own government minister hires illegals I find that argument quite sad.

[Nicely]

If you prove you are from an EU country, you can apply and get most things in the UK. Although you need a number for paying tax and National Insurance, it is NOT and ID number. There is no national ID system. Bank accounts, insurance, rent, travel cards, etc, etc, etc. Just require some form of ID, e.g. a passport. In fact you can get most of those things even if you're not from an EU country.

You can't get any of those without the ID in Finland. Well...you can the rent, but not with some companies. You can't even get help to find a job. I understand the reasoning behind the system, but what I don't think most Finns understand is just how difficult it is to live in their country without it, as they've had it all their lives. Believe it or not, most people coming from another EU country DON'T want to bleed off the Finnish state; they just want to be allowed the same opportunities a Finn has if he/she went to, for example, the UK. At the moment they haven't. If I REALLY had no option and HAD to claim benefits from the state, there are reciprocal arrangements in place whereby the Finnish government gets the money for these from the UK government. This also works in reverse.

Open borders, my ar$e.

Please don't lecture me about UK government corruption when I understand your own isn't perfect. The current British government are a complete bunch of tw@ts. It's one of the reasons I want out.

[Pursuivant]

you as a Finn may stroll into an Australian public hospital or any doctor premises which bulk bills (free of charge), and all you have to show is your Finnish passport and you would be treated at no cost.

Australia had a very interesting practice of billing asylum seekers for their upkeep until last month.

[Pursuivant]

But Finns arent allowed to just go and live in Australia.

[Pursuivant]

but what I don't think most Finns understand is just how difficult it is to live in their country without it

See thats the point. You get one to live here. You don't get one if you don't get to live here.

they just want to be allowed the same opportunities a Finn has if he/she went to, for example, the UK. At the moment they haven't.

So how is it exactly our problem your system deals out money to every tom dick and harry?

there are reciprocal arrangements in place whereby the Finnish government gets the money for these from the UK government

No my china, unless you came over with a three month dole carried over scheme its taxpayers like me paying your holiday in winter wonderland.

Open borders, my ar$e.

They are open - you are quite free to leave when your holiday ends.

Please don't lecture me about UK government corruption when I understand your own isn't perfect.

Oh but we've perfected corruption as the PM states its all legal Sad part is the tw4ts will probably vote him in again.

[Nicely]

Believe me, Hank, if the countless Finns in the UK were subjected to the same process we are when they went there, they'd be bleating on britainforum.org! :p

I'll repeat what I've said before on here; I have no interest whatsoever in claiming money off the state. All I want is the ID number so that I can get on with my life and start putting money into the Finnish economy. I would be ecstatic if I could get it with a proviso saying 'no state benefits until in full time employment'.

Re Australia: That's because Australia isn't in the EU. Russians aren't allowed to just go and live in Finland without getting a residents permit. Same thing applies for Australia.

[Pursuivant]

All I want is the ID number so that I can get on with my life and start putting money into the Finnish economy.

So find yourself a job - theres no need for you to have an ID number before. After you get a job contract you get it even through the tax office...

Believe me, Hank, if the countless Finns in the UK were subjected to the same process we are when they went there

Believe me, those Finns differ in you lot in that a) they speak the lingo and b) thus can find a job easily

[inkku]

If you prove you are from an EU country, you can apply and get most things in the UK. Although you need a number for paying tax and National Insurance, it is NOT and ID number. There is no national ID system. Bank accounts, insurance, rent, travel cards, etc, etc, etc. Just require some form of ID, e.g. a passport.

You can get a travel card without ID eg in Helsinki. But you cannot get a subsidized travel card (why should you?).

And nope, a passport is not enough in the UK for bank accounts. Even for a library card, you need an ID AND two utility bills. To rent, you need references or a hefty upfront payment.

While NI number is not an ID number, you need it at certain point, and for that you need your childhood history and shoe number. And holiday photos, and some other vital information.

And I am not saying UK system is rubbish (it could be though) and I am not saying Finnish system is perfect, but at least it follows some kind of universal logic and lessens the risk of potentially fraudulent actions of thousands of John Smith or Ali Khans etc who exist in the world.

Lately this forum has turned into some kind of universal moaning spot for immigrants who want to enjoy all the benefits of the Finnish system, but do not accept the basis where the benefits are derived from.

[Nicely]

As per previous post:

We could quote official rules all day but the fact of the matter is, finding work is a complete pain if you don't have the magic number. Employers just shy away and you cannot legislate to make an employer like you more than a local!

I am still feeling that you don't fully understand. A Finn has no such problems in the UK. That's because the UK has proper EU open borders, and has nothing to do with how easily it hands out benefits. Hell, as you already stated, anyone can get a job - even when they aren't supposed to be in the country!

I have not moaned about anything other than the difficulty in getting an ID number. If I had problems with other stuff, I wouldn't be moving there.

[Pursuivant]

finding work is a complete pain if you don't have the magic number.

And how the hell exactly do you think all those Indians in Nokia house got their jobs?

That's because the UK has proper EU open borders

Thats because UK has no order - people live like pigs in the field. Oh no, can't say that now can we - by EU rules the government does know how many pigs there are.

I have not moaned about anything other than the difficulty in getting an ID number.

And there is nothing difficult in getting an ID number - if you fulfill the requirements.

[Nicely]

Because they had a job with a niche skill before they arrived, so could get a residents permit. Just like if you go to Oz. I have tried to do the same, but have not been successful. For me to effectively get something, I need to be there.

I fully intend to meet the criteria to get the ID. That wasn't the original argument.

[inkku]

A Finn has no such problems in the UK. That's because the UK has proper EU open borders, and has nothing to do with how easily it hands out benefits. Hell, as you already stated, anyone can get a job - even when they aren't supposed to be in the country!

Such problems like what? are you talking about finding a job or eg opening a bank account? Are you complaining that you cannot find a job because you don't have an ID number

I suggest you star learning Finnish and read on Finnguild and isory forums about Finns' experiences with British bureaucracy, rental market and banks. The UK is indeed not easy in that sense, but i have understood that France is unbeatably anal....

[Pursuivant]

For me to effectively get something, I need to be there.

And what exactly stops you from coming here? You can freely come and seek work for the the 3 months on your jobseekers allowance transferred if you're on the dole currently. If you can't find a job in 3 months - that spells you out something don't it? You have no need for an ID number as you're not living here. You need one if you start living here. Because benefits are tied to residence. And ID means residence.

[EP]

Well, the work situation is what it is, I don´t think ID number would make getting a job any easier. Last evening there was a TV-program where one of the topics was ONE open warehouse job and 500 applications for that job.