Ruoan kehitysmaa

[Rob A.]

Sorry... I've gotten the links muddled up:

Boletus/Porcini
Yellowfoot/Chanterelle

....but I defer to you mushroom experts.... I assume the Kanttarelli, then is the "Golden Chanterelle" in English....and IMNSHO it is far more "hienoa" than the "porcini"....

[EP]

it is far more "hienoa" than the "porcini"....

I like it better, too. But for some reason those "gourmand" Italians prefer porcini. Truckloads are exported from Finland to Italy every year.

[Rob A.]

it is far more "hienoa" than the "porcini"....

I like it better, too. But for some reason those "gourmand" Italians prefer porcini. Truckloads are exported from Finland to Italy every year.

Hmmmmm...

Well, I, for one, wouldn't dare argue with those French and Italian gourmands....

I plucked this excerpt out of wiki...about half way down the page:

"Italian chef and restaurateur Antonio Carluccio has described it as representing "the wild mushroom par excellence", and hails it as the most rewarding of all fungi in the kitchen for its taste and versatility. Considered a choice edible, particularly in France, Germany and Italy, it was widely written about by the Roman writers Pliny the Elder and Martial, although ranked below the esteemed Amanita caesarea."

[Rob A.]

OK, Rob, next parse:
Hienonnettua suppilovahveroa pidetään hienona.

I think "yellowfoot" would simply called, "chanterelle" and "boletus", "porcini"....
kanttarelli/keltavahvero & suppilovahvero

...it that out of a recipebook????..

"Crushed funnel chanterelle/yellowfoot is held to be exquisite."....

[Pursuivant]

you mixed them up again

[Rob A.]

I think... ...there is a slight change of nuance... In the first sentence the "sense" is that the "suppilovahvero"{/i] is "almost equally exquisite"...a statement of "fact"....and in the revised sentence, it is "held as almost equally exquisite"....

Hey, that’s a good catch. You’re right, the revised version turns the “statement of a fact” (which we probably have to interpret as being Mr. Tervo’s personal opinion on the matter, in the end) into a description of a public perception on the matter.

Well, this "mysterious" lanaguage is slowly revealing itself in all its .... loistava hienovaraisuus.....(No idea if this is really a word, I just guessing)....

I've also tried to change this sentence into a more direct statement of fact:

Original Passive Voice Statement:
Tattia vähempiarvoisena pidettyä, mutta melkein yhtä hienoa suppilovahveroa ei käytetä ollenkaan.

Direct Statement:
Suppilovahvero, joka pidämme tattia vähempiarvoisena mutta on melkein yhtä hienoa ei käytä ollekaan.

I think the above would sound something like this in English:

"The funnel chanterelle/yellowfoot, which we hold in lesser value than the porcini but is equally as exquisite, is not used at all."

How's that????

[Rob A.]

you mixed them up again

Je ne comprend pas je suis...vain perkelen ulkomaalainen....

But now I'm reading about the ...maailman hienoin sientä!!!.....

Keisarikärpässieni/Caesar's mushroom....apparently not found in Finland...

"It is thought to have been introduced north of the Alps by the Roman armies as it is most frequently found along old Roman roads."....

This mushroom is highly prized, and is a common sight in the markets of Italy, southern France, and Spain..... I'll have to look for it ...in the market place, of course... on my next trip ....

....and there is a delightful mushroom, Pine mushroom, that's harvested here and shipped to Japan in great quantities....it has a nice tangy taste....and I see from wiki it's found only in British Columbia...and, I assume, nearby areas in Washington and Alaska.... it's a type of matsutake...

[EP]

....and there is a delightful mushroom, Pine mushroom, that's harvested here and shipped to Japan in great quantities....it has a nice tangy taste....and I see from wiki it's found only in British Columbia...and, I assume, nearby areas in Washington and Alaska...

No, found also in Finland and exported to Japan. More common in Lapland, and its Finnish name is männyntuoksuvalmuska. Nice catchy name. But it was practically unknown as an edible mushroom until lately. It got its "commercial mushroom" (kauppasieni) status as late as 2007.

[Jukka Aho]

Well, this "mysterious" lanaguage is slowly revealing itself in all its .... loistava hienovaraisuus.....(No idea if this is really a word, I just guessing)....:D

Heh. It’s a word all right. The primary meaning is “considerateness”, “discreetness”, “tactfulness”, as in... you’re being hienovarainen when you treat people with silk gloves; behaving very correctly and considerately, carefully avoiding any potential offense. But secondarily, it also means “delicateness”, “subtlety”.

hieno = delicate, exquisite, gracious, refined (also just “great”, as in Se oli hieno esitys, “It/that was a great show”)

hienomekaniikka = precision mechanics (think of the Swiss wristwatches, old mechanical SLR cameras and the like)

I've also tried to change this sentence into a more direct statement of fact:

Original Passive Voice Statement:
Tattia vähempiarvoisena pidettyä, mutta melkein yhtä hienoa suppilovahveroa ei käytetä ollenkaan.

Direct Statement:
Suppilovahvero, joka pidämme tattia vähempiarvoisena mutta on melkein yhtä hienoa ei käytä ollekaan.

Joka (the nominative) should be replaced with jota (the partitive), to indicate it is the word “targeted” by the verb pitää.

Also, the melkein yhtä hieno clause needs another joka to function as its local subject... and since we mean suppilovahvero as a single, concrete, complete concept (the species in its entirety, so to speak), hieno should be in the nominative, too.

You really need some commas in there as well, to indicate where the päälause and the kiilalause (what would that be called in English?) begin and end...

Additionally, the last part can’t be converted to active voice with ei käytä, as it is missing a 3rd person sg. subject, but we could use the 1st person plural me as the subject, like earlier in the same sentence...

Finally, suppilovahvero needs to be in the partitive as well, since the verb of the main clause, käyttää, requires the partitive for its objects when were talking about indefinite or on-going usage, with no sense of completion.

Like this:

Suppilovahveroa, jota pidämme tattia vähempiarvoisena, mutta joka on melkein yhtä hieno, emme käytä ollenkaan.

päälause (the main clause): Suppilovahveroa emme käytä ollenkaan.
kiilalause: jota pidämme tattia vähempiarvoisena, mutta joka on melkein yhtä hieno

(I guess you could analyse this kiilalause as consisting of two clauses on its own: the main clause and the subordinate clause.)

(kiila = wedge... I guess you can see where that comes from.)

I think the above would sound something like this in English:

"The funnel chanterelle/yellowfoot, which we hold in lesser value than the porcini but is equally as exquisite, is not used at all."

Oh, if you want the last part that way, it could also be:

Suppilovahveroa, jota pidämme tattia vähempiarvoisena, mutta joka on melkein yhtä hieno, ei käytetä ollenkaan.

Definitely not one of the easiest sentences, I’d say... :D

[EP]

KIILALAUSE????

Where did sivulause disappear? I have never heard kiilalause before.

[Upphew]

KIILALAUSE????

Where did sivulause disappear? I have never heard kiilalause before.

Kiilalause: sivulause, joka kiilattu hallitsevaan lauseeseen tai kahden hallitsevan lauseen väliin.

edit. but I too had to google that, totally new thing to me.

[Jukka Aho]

Kiilalause: sivulause, joka kiilattu hallitsevaan lauseeseen tai kahden hallitsevan lauseen väliin.

Another definition: Kiilalause tarkoittaa sivulausetta, joka katkaisee päälauseen ajatuksen.

Self-referential definition: Kiilalause, joka tarkoittaa päälauseen ajatuksen katkaisevaa sivulausetta, on eräs sivulausetyyppi.

Writers are usually advised to avoid those.

[Rob A.]

....No, found also in Finland and exported to Japan. More common in Lapland, and its Finnish name is männyntuoksuvalmuska. Nice catchy name. But it was practically unknown as an edible mushroom until lately. It got its "commercial mushroom" (kauppasieni) status as late as 2007.

Ahhhh....well, it does has a nice, tangy kick to it....probably just too "spicy" for those oldtime Finns....

[Rob A.]

Well, this "mysterious" lanaguage is slowly revealing itself in all its .... loistava hienovaraisuus.....(No idea if this is really a word, I just guessing)....

Heh. It’s a word all right. The primary meaning is “considerateness”, “discreetness”, “tactfulness”, as in... you’re being hienovarainen when you treat people with silk gloves; behaving very correctly and considerately, carefully avoiding any potential offense. But secondarily, it also means “delicateness”, “subtlety”.

hieno = delicate, exquisite, gracious, refined (also just “great”, as in Se oli hieno esitys, “It/that was a great show”)

hienomekaniikka = precision mechanics (think of the Swiss wristwatches, old mechanical SLR cameras and the like)

OK...did it make sense??? ....."loistava hienovaraisuus", meaning "wonderfully subtle" as in: "Suomenkielella on loistava hienovaraisuus."...."The Finnish language has wonderful subtlety." Or would you more typically say it some other way????...

You really need some commas in there as well, to indicate where the päälause and the kiilalause (what would that be called in English?) begin and end...

.....


päälause (the main clause): Suppilovahveroa emme käytä ollenkaan.
kiilalause: jota pidämme tattia vähempiarvoisena, mutta joka on melkein yhtä hieno

(I guess you could analyse this kiilalause as consisting of two clauses on its own: the main clause and the subordinate clause.)

(kiila = wedge... I guess you can see where that comes from.)

Hmmmm...I'm not sure.... but what you are saying sound good to me .... an equal part of the subordinate clause....mutta being a conjunction.

Now just to get this right down to the basics...a direct active statement...how would you say:

"We do not use the funnel chanterelle/yellowfoot at all." ....???...

This way:

"Emme käytä suppilovahveroa ollekaan." ....????...


....Hmmm... I think I can see now that there is no way to avoid using the partitive is there????... Even a statement such as: käytämme yhtä suppilovahveroa. has to be in the partitive....

How about:

Poimimme yksi suppilovahvero. ...or, probably it would be Poimmimme yhden suppilovahveron.....???.....

[Jukka Aho]

OK...did it make sense??? ....."loistava hienovaraisuus", meaning "wonderfully subtle" as in: "Suomenkielella on loistava hienovaraisuus."...."The Finnish language has wonderful subtlety." Or would you more typically say it some other way????...

I think it’s OK. The only other word that springs to mind is vivahteikkuus (see vivahde as well.)

But you’d use it this way: Suomen kieli on loistavan hienovarainen (kieli). Or perhaps Suomen kielessä on loistavan hienovaraisia ilmaisuja.

Languages are sometimes commended on their ilmaisuvoima, expressivity or power of expression, but that’s a bit different thing.

kiilalause (what would that be called in English?)

Hmmmm...I'm not sure.... :? but what you are saying sound good to me .... an equal part of the subordinate clause....mutta being a conjunction.

Fragments would seem to come close as a concept but they’re more like stray words than complete clauses...

Now just to get this right down to the basics...a direct active statement...how would you say:

"We do not use the funnel chanterelle/yellowfoot at all." ....???...

This way:

"Emme käytä suppilovahveroa ollekaan." ....????...

Yep. Note the spelling of ollenkaan. You could also use the word lainkaan in place of ollenkaan; they’re synonymous.

Hmmm... I think I can see now that there is no way to avoid using the partitive is there????... Even a statement such as: käytämme yhtä suppilovahveroa. has to be in the partitive....

You could use the -N accusative if you use a single mushroom “to its completion” in some way:

Käytämme yhden suppilovahveron.

That could be something a TV chef would say.

Poimimme yksi suppilovahvero. ...or, probably it would be Poimmimme yhden suppilovahveron.....???.....:D

Poimimme yhden suppilovahveron.