Dusty:
I don't know. I guess my point was that if you've been working a few years your grade point average and things like that become less important. I mean there are some average intelligence people who make fabulous salesmen, for example, and I would rather have one of those people selling my stuff than a highly intelligent philosopher. Success at work and success in school or on tests are different things.
I know one man in his 50's who has a very good reputation as a business manager. He barely even mentions where he studied anymore.
But I see where you're going with this. Some people are afraid to hire someone who they know is more capable than they are. I've even had one executive admit to me that he hired someone less capable than another appicant because the other guy seemed too ambitious and was afraid that the applicant would take his job!
Anyone interested in taking the Mensa IQ test in Tampere?
Actually I do have a bit of an ego about my intelligence. It's my wife that thinks I'm an idiot. Molecular biology may be simple for me, but she also factors in my absent mindedness - forgetting to pay the bills, etc. I have a very high IQ, but there are a lot of other things that factor into a person's success in business or life.dusty_bin wrote:
Eric, you may choose to believe that you are dim, but frankly, dim people do not do well on IQ tests. Isn't it a shame that you feel it necessary to claim to be an 'idiot' in order to fit in with your chosen peers?
Some jobs do not require a high IQ to be successful and actually sales is notorious for this... OTOH I am very bright (sorry), but I am also a VERY good salesperson! I have worked with and employed very good sales people who were not to bright, but then they can do well, in non technical, or unsphisticated environments with patterned techniques and good empathy. (Ever meet a succesful AND bright double glazing salesman? The managers are often VERY bright though, but rarely the best salespeople on the team.)
For a job one should choose the right person for the job. Anyone who would reject, as a matter of policy and prejudice, somebody who was as proud of his IQ as somebody else was of his God given hand/eye coordination is almost certainly failing his employer!
Of course high IQ does not mean that one is good at everything. A strength in one area is often a compensation for a weakness somewhere else. I for example, have crappy hand/eye coordination and bad short term memory. I guess, I could have been dim and still bad at those things, but I might not have noticed...
For a job one should choose the right person for the job. Anyone who would reject, as a matter of policy and prejudice, somebody who was as proud of his IQ as somebody else was of his God given hand/eye coordination is almost certainly failing his employer!
Of course high IQ does not mean that one is good at everything. A strength in one area is often a compensation for a weakness somewhere else. I for example, have crappy hand/eye coordination and bad short term memory. I guess, I could have been dim and still bad at those things, but I might not have noticed...
Seems like we share the same disease. Maybe there is a correlation between high intelligence and being a klutz who can't remember what they came into a room to do.dusty_bin wrote:I for example, have crappy hand/eye coordination and bad short term memory. I guess, I could have been dim and still bad at those things, but I might not have noticed...
That's really my point. I'm sure you can think of some highly intelligent "social retards" who are great to have working for you in a lab.dusty_bin wrote:Of course high IQ does not mean that one is good at everything. A strength in one area is often a compensation for a weakness somewhere else.
I can't really say why, but there's something about MENSA that bugs me. I don't have a problem with someone who joins, but I think that part of why it bugs me is that it's not an achievement, it just says that you did well on a test and are most likely bright. Fine. But I'd be much more interested in what someone has done with that intelligence. There are plenty of gifted, lazy people as well.
On a related but different subject, Bill Gates was a college drop-out, and he's doing okay. Granted, for every Bill Gates, there are millions of mediocre drop-outs that think they're gifted.
Last edited by bohica on Fri May 21, 2004 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bisad bilash mahadoni?
Bohica, of course people forget about GPA; as long as one is demonstrating the abilities that made that high GPA possible then the GPA itself matters not.
That is why having a MENSA membership and displaying the fact is no different to showing that one has a degree. They are signs of an ability to do two important things well... to think and to learn. OK native intelligence is less about learning than thinking, but I think the point stands as the dim are not good at learning either.
That is why having a MENSA membership and displaying the fact is no different to showing that one has a degree. They are signs of an ability to do two important things well... to think and to learn. OK native intelligence is less about learning than thinking, but I think the point stands as the dim are not good at learning either.
Okay, you convinced me - partly. MENSA's probably worth mentioning on a CV. But there still is something about the organization that bugs me. I can't exactly put my finger on it, though. I guess it's just that it's not correlated to whether or not someone is suitable for the job and I can think of many other things that would impress me more. But as far as I'm concerned, being active in a church group has nothing at all to do with work, and some people put that down on a CV.
Bisad bilash mahadoni?
The mediocre dropouts who are Mensa members KNOW they are bright. They KNOW what they wasted. I have a sneaking suspicion that many who knock Mensa and similar organisations are either people who took and failed preliminary tests, or who think they would not be able to join. After all, there are plenty out in the big wide world happy to knock a university education, the one thing that MOST, of those knockers have in common is their failure to enter into the instituion they knock. There are very few, if any university graduates of 'average' intelligence.
BTW, what is wrong with doing well on a test and being bright?
I can tell you that for many years, I though I was a bit dim. I saw things differently to my peers and could not understand why I did not enjoy some of the things that they thought were great. I was not good in school. Somebody with a little insight suggested that I should do an IQ test. The results surprised me and my reading as a result changed my life. I did not join Mensa at the time because I could not afford to sit their test ( I was VERY poor at the time!) Later I did not bother, in part because I went and got me some 'larnin'' and felt that the degree I was earning was an even better badge as well as providing me with a much more congenial peer group than that which I had previously enjoyed.
BTW, what is wrong with doing well on a test and being bright?
I can tell you that for many years, I though I was a bit dim. I saw things differently to my peers and could not understand why I did not enjoy some of the things that they thought were great. I was not good in school. Somebody with a little insight suggested that I should do an IQ test. The results surprised me and my reading as a result changed my life. I did not join Mensa at the time because I could not afford to sit their test ( I was VERY poor at the time!) Later I did not bother, in part because I went and got me some 'larnin'' and felt that the degree I was earning was an even better badge as well as providing me with a much more congenial peer group than that which I had previously enjoyed.
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Niall Shaky
- Posts: 832
- Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 3:41 pm
Or they think it's pathetic, elitest and quasi-fascistic and the whole thing gives them the creepsdusty_bin wrote:The mediocre dropouts who are Mensa members KNOW they are bright. They KNOW what they wasted. I have a sneaking suspicion that many who knock Mensa and similar organisations are either people who took and failed preliminary tests, or who think they would not be able to join.
I think that the thing that bugs people, and I can see their point, to a degree; is that IQ is seen, at least partially incorrectly, as being an innate thing. So in a way it is like having a club for white people that excludes blacks, simply because of the colour of their skin. A person claiming to be in an elite simply becasue they have a good brain is not really claiming much. But the thing is that Mensans, generally, do much more and the ones I have met are good people. Just a lot brighter than almost anybody else they meet.
See, for the bright, this is a problem. Most of us here are significantly brighter than the average bear... Even today though, I marvel at the difference in my mental landscape since I started to associate, almost entirely, with significantly bright people. I can easily understand how, for example, a bright postman, might leap at the opportunity to meet other bright people, yet, how will he recognise, or meet these people? A Mensa badge, a club, shared activities all meet that need. As I said, had I not gone to university and possibly even the university I ended up at, my life would have been different, I might have joined Mensa. I know I would have been accepted! Would I be bragging if I joined?
No, I would be seeking out people who had a mental lanscape similar to mine and perhaps signalling to the world that I was capable of more and differnt to the role that I was currently assigned. HAving my job application thrown out in that circumstance would sadden me, perhaps anger me, but ultimately as I wrote earlier, would not disappoint me as I would be in the wrong place anyway.
See, for the bright, this is a problem. Most of us here are significantly brighter than the average bear... Even today though, I marvel at the difference in my mental landscape since I started to associate, almost entirely, with significantly bright people. I can easily understand how, for example, a bright postman, might leap at the opportunity to meet other bright people, yet, how will he recognise, or meet these people? A Mensa badge, a club, shared activities all meet that need. As I said, had I not gone to university and possibly even the university I ended up at, my life would have been different, I might have joined Mensa. I know I would have been accepted! Would I be bragging if I joined?
No, I would be seeking out people who had a mental lanscape similar to mine and perhaps signalling to the world that I was capable of more and differnt to the role that I was currently assigned. HAving my job application thrown out in that circumstance would sadden me, perhaps anger me, but ultimately as I wrote earlier, would not disappoint me as I would be in the wrong place anyway.
Not if they are members they would not.Niall Shaky wrote:Or they think it's pathetic, elitest and quasi-fascistic and the whole thing gives them the creepsdusty_bin wrote:The mediocre dropouts who are Mensa members KNOW they are bright. They KNOW what they wasted. I have a sneaking suspicion that many who knock Mensa and similar organisations are either people who took and failed preliminary tests, or who think they would not be able to join.
BTW, where does the semi-fascist epithet come from?
Possibly, but I have a sneaking suspicion that many who think, that IQ tests are a true measure of intelligence did well on these tests.dusty_bin wrote:I have a sneaking suspicion that many who knock Mensa and similar organisations are either people who took and failed preliminary tests, or who think they would not be able to join.
Anyway, I did well in college, GPA-wise, but to be honest I think that people skills are more important for most jobs. Nothing is more irratating than having to work with someone who is oh so sure of his/her genius - although people will ignore this if it just so happens to be true.
I've studied a little bit of sociolinguistics, and I've always found it interesting how skillful speakers can change the way they talk depending on who they're speaking to without their audience noticing. I would trade a high GPA for that skill any day.
Bisad bilash mahadoni?
Betcha you wouldn't!I've studied a little bit of sociolinguistics, and I've always found it interesting how skillful speakers can change the way they talk depending on who they're speaking to without their audience noticing. I would trade a high GPA for that skill any day.
Do you think that skilful speakers, who use their own material are dim?
One of the hallmarks of intelligence is perception.
Even in personal communication, the dim are, well, dim... Can be nice, good people and all, but, but...
People skills are important for most jobs, but for sure there are as many irritating averge and dim people as intelligent ones. Perhaps you notice the bright ones more because they actually get somewhere, so you actually meet them and they are in positions of influence. The dim ones are busy putting round pegs in to round holes on a production line (said he generalising a touch!)
No they're probably not dim, but my point was that there are a few 30-year-old genius virgins who live in their mother's basement out there that I don't envy.dusty_bin wrote:Betcha you wouldn't!I've studied a little bit of sociolinguistics, and I've always found it interesting how skillful speakers can change the way they talk depending on who they're speaking to without their audience noticing. I would trade a high GPA for that skill any day.
Do you think that skilful speakers, who use their own material are dim?
One of the hallmarks of intelligence is perception.
Or busy getting rich if they're able to meet the right contacts.dusty_bin wrote:The dim ones are busy putting round pegs in to round holes on a production line (said he generalising a touch!)
Bisad bilash mahadoni?