Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

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Adrian42
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by Adrian42 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:06 pm

starla wrote:
Adrian42 wrote:That's 5 years plus half a year for the processing of the citizenship application.

How much do you already know about Finland, and have you ever been to Finland before?
Helsinki is more Northern than the capital of Alaska, with consequences like that the length of day at this time of the year is less than 6 hours, and that the 30 cm of snow we have at the moment will likely stay until April.
And people from the US often tend to have problems to adapt to the mentality of the people here.
I don't want to scare you off, but these are things you should also be aware of.
Actually, I have never been to Finland before! I do plan to visit prior to moving there, but moving for employment opportunities is pretty common amongst Americans. I'm not that worried about adapting to the mentality of the people, I think I'm quite adaptable. I'm also rather reserved for an American, as is my husband, so I think we will fit in quite well in northern Europe.
When I meet my boss at the corridor in my company, I am not saying Hi to him and he is not saying Hi to me.

That is not meant to be unfriendly by either side, it is just that this kind of unnecessary small talk is uncommon here in Finland.

Another part of the Finnish mentality is the more-German-than-we-Germans-rule-abiding.
starla wrote:I believe Helsinki is nearly the same latitude of Anchorage, though colder and gets less rain.
Helsinki is more Southern, is on average warmer and has more rain than Anchorage (which is not the capital of Alaska).



Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

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Upphew
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by Upphew » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:32 pm

Adrian42 wrote:When I meet my boss at the corridor in my company, I am not saying Hi to him and he is not saying Hi to me.
Image
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starla
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by starla » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:33 pm

Adrian42 wrote: Helsinki is more Southern, is on average warmer and has more rain than Anchorage (which is not the capital of Alaska).
Ah, you are correct. I was confusing Anchorage with Seward, which I believe is at about the same latitude as Helsinki. Though I would not say that Seward is noticeably warmer than Anchorage -- for someone from North Carolina they are about the same, cool in the summer and very cold in the winter. I cannot comment on the weather in Juneau, as I have never visited. I am surprised to hear that Helsinki gets more rain. I didn't think that was possible.

Upphew
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by Upphew » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:45 pm

starla wrote:
Adrian42 wrote: Helsinki is more Southern, is on average warmer and has more rain than Anchorage (which is not the capital of Alaska).
Ah, you are correct. I was confusing Anchorage with Seward, which I believe is at about the same latitude as Helsinki. Though I would not say that Seward is noticeably warmer than Anchorage -- for someone from North Carolina they are about the same, cool in the summer and very cold in the winter. I cannot comment on the weather in Juneau, as I have never visited. I am surprised to hear that Helsinki gets more rain. I didn't think that was possible.
422mm vs. 655mm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchorage,_Alaska
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki
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Rip
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by Rip » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:47 pm

starla wrote:The pay rate the company quoted is 4-5000 euros/month, and according to that tax calculator if I were to get paid at the high end of the scale, then I'd be bringing home ~37,000 euros/yr unless I misunderstand something.
Something like that (I got bout 39,000 €/yr with 60 000 annual income. With vacation bonus ('lomaraha') 5000 €/month should be 63 000/year, but that was the high end and definitely your basic calculation is correct).
As for the husband, he already will have a PhD in chemistry so I'm not sure more schooling is the way to go for him. Ideally, he would get a postdoc or a job in industry, but we're not finding a ton of opportunities in his particular area of research. So I'm not sure what kind of work he could pick up. Would more opportunities open up if he were to learn finnish (neither of us can speak it, but the company I'm talking to doesn't seem to care)? Or would we have to accept living on one salary and having his education go to waste?
Well, people with university education in sciences/technology, with research orientation - I'd say there is definitely lot better than average chance that if a job is available it could be successfully done in English. But this is small country and economy is weak (what did he do his thesis on?). Obviously it would make dramatic difference to your freely disposable income as most of your salary will go to buy the bare necessities.
Someone spoke of free education; would I be able to get an MBA while working, or is education only free if you have no income? I was considering applying for an online MBA program in the states, but those are quite expensive ($90,000 for the one I was looking at) and if a free one is available that would be quite valuable and would factor highly into my decision.
Regular degree programs are free irrespective of income, but those MBA programs I think tend to be for a fee. First quotation I saw (googling 'Aalto' (the prime techonology/business university in Helsinki area, former Helsinki University of Technology and School of Economics (if they happened to say you anything) combined) and 'MBA' and clicking the links was somewhat above 10 000 euros)
And one final question; should I get there and find the job to not be what they made it out to be, am I able to just quit and walk away, or are employees required to give lengthy notice? I know in some countries, employees are under contract to stay and if they would like to leave, they are sometimes forced to stay 6 months or more before they are released from their contracts. Here in the states, you are employed "at will", which means both you and the employer can terminate employment at any time for any reason, but two weeks notice is the standard.
Default rule for an employee is 14 days if you have been working less than five years (as it is for the employer if the contract has lasted less than a year). Longer period, up to six months, is legally valid if it is stated in the employment contract.

Employment contracts act, Chapter 6, sections 2 and 3.
http://www.finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokset ... 010055.pdf
See also "Agreement of non-competition" Chapter 3, section 5.

The "at will" is valid for the employee, the employer needs and acceptable reason. The work contract may include a trial period during which both employee and employer can terminate the contract with immediate effect (and even employer for almost any reason) .
(Chapter 1, section 4)

Adrian42
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by Adrian42 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:00 am

Adrian42 wrote:
starla wrote:I suppose this is more than most Fins make, but is it enough to support two people in Helsinki with a decent lifestyle? I realize our lifestyle will be completely different than here in the states, where an engineer can make six figures, but we are interested in seeing a different perspective, and the job itself would be extremely valuable experience as it was described. I am just concerned because everything I read says living in Helsinki is extremely expensive, and I don't want to be poor.
It always depends on what you compare Helsinki with: Helsinki is extremely expensive compared to Berlin, but compared to New York City living in Helsinki is cheap.

With 4-5000 euros/month for two people you are not poor.
Let me give you some numbers for that:

€ 4000-5000 before taxes are € 2500-3000 after taxes.

On rent plus electricity and internet you pay for a 2 room 40-50m² apartment relatively near to the center (e.g. Lauttasaari or Kallio) around € 1000 per month. Bigger is more expensive, further outside the city center is cheaper. € 1000-1500 is a realistic estimate what you'll pay (depending on where and how big).

€ 1000-1500 per month sounds realistic for two people for food and public transport and clothes, occassional visits to the cinema and cafes, a language course, etc.

That would leave € 0-1000 per month for optional luxury like e.g. holiday travel or a car.

If "decent lifestyle" is for you a normal middle-class life where you don't have to consider the costs before going to a cafe with a friend or to the cinema, but don't plan to spend insane amounts of money on weekly shopping sprees, then you should be quite fine with that salary in Helsinki.

And this is with just one salary, as soon as your husband also finds a job you will be in an even better financial situation.

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Pursuivant
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by Pursuivant » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:41 am

Rip wrote:
Someone spoke of free education; would I be able to get an MBA while working, or is education only free if you have no income? I was considering applying for an online MBA program in the states, but those are quite expensive ($90,000 for the one I was looking at) and if a free one is available that would be quite valuable and would factor highly into my decision.
Regular degree programs are free irrespective of income, but those MBA programs I think tend to be for a fee. First quotation I saw (googling 'Aalto' (the prime techonology/business university in Helsinki area, former Helsinki University of Technology and School of Economics (if they happened to say you anything) combined) and 'MBA' and clicking the links was somewhat above 10 000 euros)
Ah, thats because MBA is not a "degree", and thus they can charge for it. Masters degree in business, like Economics is a "degree", and degree studies are free. However the MBA's in Finland aren't on the expensive side compared to elsewhere.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

starla
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by starla » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:15 am

Rip wrote:Well, people with university education in sciences/technology, with research orientation - I'd say there is definitely lot better than average chance that if a job is available it could be successfully done in English. But this is small country and economy is weak (what did he do his thesis on?). Obviously it would make dramatic difference to your freely disposable income as most of your salary will go to buy the bare necessities.
My husband's thesis will be on Surface Plasmon Resonance. He basically looks for materials and/or combinations of materials in the near and mid infrared range and then deposits and characterizes thin films of those materials. I'm not sure beyond that; I quit asking him about it years ago. Once he gets to talking about it he won't stop and I never know what he's talking about. He's published two or three papers and he's got one or two more to submit. He will defend his thesis in March. He has applied to a postdoc at Aalto University, but we have not heard anything back.

Rick1

Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by Rick1 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:04 am

[quote="Adrian42"]
When I meet my boss at the corridor in my company, I am not saying Hi to him and he is not saying Hi to me.

That is not meant to be unfriendly by either side, it is just that this kind of unnecessary small talk is uncommon here in Finland.
[quote end]

Most western countries it is called lazy or rude.

cors187
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by cors187 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:27 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... erage_wage
It says that Irelands average wage is the second highest?
I was under the impression that ireland was like greece(collecting money from the EU)?

Estonia is 2nd last, i know where i am going to get my sausages now.

Edit# theres something wrong in hungry, 35% tax and last on the disposable income list.

Rip
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by Rip » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:07 pm

starla wrote:Surface Plasmon Resonance.
I know nothing about that. I see they have something going on related to them in Helsinki University (not the same as Aalto). Otherwise he might need to consider if he could widen his search terms.

animist
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by animist » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:04 am

Rip wrote: Regular degree programs are free irrespective of income, but those MBA programs I think tend to be for a fee. First quotation I saw (googling 'Aalto' (the prime techonology/business university in Helsinki area, former Helsinki University of Technology and School of Economics (if they happened to say you anything) combined) and 'MBA' and clicking the links was somewhat above 10 000 euros)
In fact it is a bit more expensive, in Aalto it is 33500 + VAT for part-time MBA and 41500 + VAT for executive MBA courses.

Rip
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by Rip » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:37 am

Oops... Well, I did certainly assume that if it was a serious plan for the OP she would search for the most relevant option herself, but I must have picked the price from some wrong page for another study package...

Upphew
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by Upphew » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:27 am

Pursuivant wrote:Ah, thats because MBA is not a "degree", and thus they can charge for it. Masters degree in business, like Economics is a "degree", and degree studies are free. However the MBA's in Finland aren't on the expensive side compared to elsewhere.
What I have gathered... the MBAs biggest advantage is the network that you get while doing it. And that companies pay them to heir directors or wannabe directors who don't have any work to do.
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animist
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Re: Need Salary advice - Engineer position in Helsinki

Post by animist » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:59 pm

Value of the network of people who don't have any work to do is insignificant.


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