Traffic rules at cross roads

[BigStack]

I'm probably being very slow on the up take here, but a car pulled out in front of me from the right in the following T-junction:

https://www.google.fi/maps/@60.1580998, ... !1e1?hl=en

It appears that he had right of way - how was I supposed to know this in advance of the junction without there being a 'Give-Way' triangle sign, a 'Stop' sign or white markings on the road? I don't recall seeing any 'diamond' shape signs either.

This might explain why I've had a few near misses in the past... But I'm struggling to see the logic in a) allowing the car joining the road to have priority over the traffic already using it b) not applying this rule to all junctions of this nature. If Finns are used to having a priority over traffic coming from the left, no wonder I've also had to break hard when circling a roundabout!

[rayoflight]

I'm probably being very slow on the up take here, but a car pulled out in front of me from the right in the following T-junction:

https://www.google.fi/maps/@60.1580998, ... !1e1?hl=en

It appears that he had right of way - how was I supposed to know this in advance of the junction without there being a 'Give-Way' triangle sign, a 'Stop' sign or white markings on the road? I don't recall seeing any 'diamond' shape signs either.

This might explain why I've had a few near misses in the past... But I'm struggling to see the logic in a) allowing the car joining the road to have priority over the traffic already using it b) not applying this rule to all junctions of this nature. If Finns are used to having a priority over traffic coming from the left, no wonder I've also had to break hard when circling a roundabout!

Yes this is something not clearly obvious (give way to drivers on right on crossroads). As far as roundabouts are concerned, I think you always give way to the cars on left, or so I have understood and followed without problem until now!

[BigStack]

Here is an example of another T-junction coming up on the right within Helsinki city limits.

https://www.google.fi/maps/@60.1942562, ... 6656?hl=en

However, in this case, cars coming from the right have to give way. How can you differentiate between these two examples I provided ?!?!

[Marsh04]

If the guy on the right doesn't have a give way triangle he has the right of way, it is as simple as it is. If you are not sure just always be careful for the traffic coming from the right. It doesn't matter if it is a T-junction or a normal cross road. The guy coming from the right is not joining the traffic but he is already a part of the traffic.

On roundabouts cars which are already on the roundabout have the right of way. Anybody entering the round about must give way to cars already on the roundabout.

[007]

Here is an example of another T-junction coming up on the right within Helsinki city limits.

https://www.google.fi/maps/@60.1942562, ... 6656?hl=en

However, in this case, cars coming from the right have to give way. How can you differentiate between these two examples I provided ?!?!

You don't see upside down triangle sign on the pole? Rule is vehicle coming from right has a right of way unless there's upside down triangle sign (stop sign etc). On roundabouts, vehicles already in the roundabouts have right of way, so basically you wait for vehicles coming from your left to pass by.

[Piet]

Rules are pretty simple indeed, 1 all traffic from the right can go first....except..2 when they have the triangle upside down sign or the eight cornered stop sign which are sometimes hard to see, but then see rule 1

But the reason to repeat the obvious was not repeating the obvious just wanted to remind everyone driving on a roundabout, KEEP YOUR LANE when on the roundabout with multiple lanes... most people in Finland do this wrong, in other countries too but we live here I just wish they would make more turbo-roundabouts, where you have to keep your lane due to a barrier. So the trick that most people in finland cannot do, is to know which lane to take before entering the roundabout, so they leave the roundabout at the correct turn, instead of needing to almost dive into your door when they find out halfway the roundabout that they have the wrong lane..

just saying

[BigStack]

Here is an example of another T-junction coming up on the right within Helsinki city limits.

https://www.google.fi/maps/@60.1942562, ... 6656?hl=en

However, in this case, cars coming from the right have to give way. How can you differentiate between these two examples I provided ?!?!

You don't see upside down triangle sign on the pole? Rule is vehicle coming from right has a right of way unless there's upside down triangle sign (stop sign etc).

So I need to be looking out for signs on adjacent roads facing a different direction to determine whether I have right of way or not ?! I can just about make out the pole but what if you were driving along at 40kph in the dark and rain and a truck just turned into the road thereby blocking your view?

For the record, I understand the rule of giving way to traffic from the right when they have right of way. However, IMO, it is far from clear when this applies. Any potential confusion on the roads is surely bad design and potentially dangerous?

[riku2]

IMO, it is far from clear when this applies. Any potential confusion on the roads is surely bad design and potentially dangerous?

Yes, the signs are unclear and road design terrible in Finland. I suspect the approach is that if you make it uncertain what drivers should do then they will drive slower and so cause less accidents. This approach fails if drivers get used to the road and learn what to do (since in previous days they have taken note of the back of signs/signs edge onto them/tiny bit of paint still showing on the road surface telling what to do) and those drivers don't slow down. The end result - chaos in a country with not much car traffic!

Here's a road from a country where they also have the give way to the right rule
https://goo.gl/maps/8KpS9EekYcr

It's a lesson in road design to go up and down the roads in google street view there:

• junctions frequently have a yellow diamond showing you have priority over traffic from the right. Unlike in Finland where yellow diamond signs are put up exceptionally sparingly and certainly not in front of junctions (what a bizarre concept they have in holland .. putting up a sign saying you have priority at junctions just before a junction !!)
  
  the road is narrowed to one lane and pavements really wide. No roads 1.75 lanes wide with no lane markings to allow people to try and drive side by side when it's not marked as two lanes wide (helsinki stand up you are a champion at this!!)
  
  very clear signs and painted "narrowing" before pedestrian crossings (this is in addition to the regular stripes of the crossing)
  
  pedestrian crossings often raised (to give the impression that pedestrians have priority, which I think is actually true at a pedestrian crossing)
  
  slightly raised median, even though the road might be only one lane in each direction
  
  built out kerbs so you don't suddenly find the driving lane is also a lane where cars might park (https://goo.gl/maps/KY2wCCzX5Zp Again, Helsinki stand up you are a champion at this, even more so when the lane will be clear of parked cars until 18:00 and after that an increasing chance that parked cars are there instead.
  
  Side roads have the pedestrian pavement between them and the main road, truly giving the impression that cars are travelling over pedestrian space https://goo.gl/maps/6ShLDoxqjTL2 nto the other way around as in finland where pedestrians scurry out of the way of turning cars.

By comparison take a look at the streets of Lauttasaari

This dog's breakfast of a junction in particular. https://goo.gl/maps/f3J7GAa5DHD2
MASSIVELY wide road (I think you could get six cars side by side across that road) when it's actually just one lane in each direction. The width also encourages parking directly at the junction (the small blue car about 1m from the side road).
Typical Helsinki planning. A huge patch of tarmac and let drivers themselves sort out what to do and hopefully not run over too many pedestrians while doing it.

[Marsh04]

A little common sense and knowing the basic rules makes driving very easy.

If you are going on a 40 road in darkness you will most probably have many zebra crossings as well so naturally you'll be very careful whenever arriving a crossroad. So I don't see any danger of an accident if a vehicle from the right arrives. A stupid would be looking for a traffic sign while a person with a little common sense will read the traffic.

[BigStack]

If you are going on a 40 road in darkness you will most probably have many zebra crossings as well so naturally you'll be very careful whenever arriving a crossroad. So I don't see any danger of an accident if a vehicle from the right arrives. A stupid would be looking for a traffic sign while a person with a little common sense will read the traffic.

I'm super observant whilst driving near zebra crossings* especially during the darkness and am prepared to stop immediately by having the foot hovering over the brake rather than on the gas. I'm also scanning for other vehicles carefully. Then! It appears - a vehicle approaching on the road on my right.

So how do I proceed now? I don't know for a fact that he has to "give way" or "stop". It could be that he has right of way over me. So should I slow down to a crawl, actually stop and see what happens, or put my foot down and hope for the best?! So even when "reading the traffic", Marsh04, I'm still non the wiser who has right of way!

* Ironically, zebra crossings ARE clearly labelled and we all know pedestrians have right of way. Yet it seems you have to practically have one foot in the road before vehicles stop. In the UK, I was taught to basically stop if there was anybody vaguely looking like they were wanting to cross. In Finland, I've lost count how many times I've seen pedestrians just standing next to the crossing whilst vehicles whizz past - until I stop for them obviously!

[Marsh04]

If you don't know the road and also not able to see any signs then you should just crawl and keep an eye on the driver coming from the right. In most of the cases he'll have the right of the way anyway. I don't see the point in making a fuss about it. 40 is too small a speed to cause any danger if you are a little careful.

[Marsh04]

I observed drivers driving to close to next vehicles in the UK, no wonder 1 cm of snow causes a havoc there as drivers don't have a good sense of safe distance while here life goes on normally even in 30cm of snow

[007]

Here is an example of another T-junction coming up on the right within Helsinki city limits.

https://www.google.fi/maps/@60.1942562, ... 6656?hl=en

However, in this case, cars coming from the right have to give way. How can you differentiate between these two examples I provided ?!?!

You don't see upside down triangle sign on the pole? Rule is vehicle coming from right has a right of way unless there's upside down triangle sign (stop sign etc).

So I need to be looking out for signs on adjacent roads facing a different direction to determine whether I have right of way or not ?! I can just about make out the pole but what if you were driving along at 40kph in the dark and rain and a truck just turned into the road thereby blocking your view?

For the record, I understand the rule of giving way to traffic from the right when they have right of way. However, IMO, it is far from clear when this applies. Any potential confusion on the roads is surely bad design and potentially dangerous?

- 40kph speed limit is actually really slow. With realization time and reaction time taken into consideration, both drivers will most probably be able to brake in time.
- if it's too dark to see, either your eyes or the headlights of the car is at fault (out in the woods, you turn your long distance headlights on). [believe me, in darkness it's much easier to see another vehicle even in the distance]
- raining or snowing rarely creates enough obstacles to stop you driving. In case, you need to stop, you stop. I don't understand the fuss.
- if there's a vehicle turning in front of you blocks your view, your speed will come down - because you are too close to the turning vehicle - allowing you to see things in slow drive.
- on top of everything, you assume there will be another vehicle coming right of you....................anyway, like i said in 40 kph zone, both will have enough realization and reaction time enough to brake or slow down to adjust into the traffic.

all in all, you are just creating a scenario, which won't be as difficult to drive as you would like to make it sound like. I am sure you don't have much driving experience or at least definitely new in here.

[BigStack]

Thanks for the comments. I've got over 15 years driving experience (including 2 in Finland) and honestly had not heard of this rule until yesterday. Hence the fuss!
Anyway, most of my driving is on the bigger roads and in suburbia rather than downtown Helsinki so I will just have to be extra vigilante when in the center.
I'm also going to watch the other motorists and see how they handle these situations.

[Piet]

If you are going on a 40 road in darkness you will most probably have many zebra crossings as well so naturally you'll be very careful whenever arriving a crossroad. So I don't see any danger of an accident if a vehicle from the right arrives. A stupid would be looking for a traffic sign while a person with a little common sense will read the traffic.

I'm super observant whilst driving near zebra crossings* especially during the darkness and am prepared to stop immediately by having the foot hovering over the brake rather than on the gas. I'm also scanning for other vehicles carefully. Then! It appears - a vehicle approaching on the road on my right.

So how do I proceed now? I don't know for a fact that he has to "give way" or "stop". It could be that he has right of way over me. So should I slow down to a crawl, actually stop and see what happens, or put my foot down and hope for the best?! So even when "reading the traffic", Marsh04, I'm still non the wiser who has right of way!

* Ironically, zebra crossings ARE clearly labelled and we all know pedestrians have right of way. Yet it seems you have to practically have one foot in the road before vehicles stop. In the UK, I was taught to basically stop if there was anybody vaguely looking like they were wanting to cross. In Finland, I've lost count how many times I've seen pedestrians just standing next to the crossing whilst vehicles whizz past - until I stop for them obviously!

So the solution is pretty clear for you, always give way to traffic from the right...if they stop for you anyway, they probably have a sign telling them they have to wait for you and then you can push your feet an inch down again on the trottle

Oh and in general Finnish drivers think they can drive very good, but they actually suck big time in driving skills. So better be safe then sorry and slow down to a crawling pace when a road from the right is ahead, but also from the left.. they might think you have a stop sign..