Traffic rules at cross roads

[rayoflight]

A little strange topic maybe but need to clear it up before I cause an accident.

If we have cross roads, to be precise say this one: https://www.google.fi/maps/@60.1640978, ... 56!6m1!1e1

If I am driving on Hietalahdenkatu going towards Eerikinkatu and come to this cross road. There is a car coming from my right, does that car have right of way? And if so is this a rule that cars on your right at cross roads always have right of way regardless of the size of street etc? I have been honked at twice for not stopping for car on the right in this situation and want to get this straight.

[JK_Ironak]

I´m not sure what you are asking, since this was easy to google.
http://www.expat-finland.com/pdf/driving_in_finland.pdf

Give way to vehicles from the right
Motorists must give way at road junctions to vehicles approaching from the right if the junction has no separate give-way priority indicated by road signs.

We have the same rule in Croatia I wonder how it is in the rest of EU.

[tjawatts]

Yes, you have to give way to the traffic from the right, unless they have a give way sign... On google maps if you peak round the corner you see they dont. It is sometimes not so easy to see in real life.

On bigger roads there is a yellow diamond that tells that that road has right of way.

http://portal.liikennevirasto.fi/sivu/w ... g_priority

T

[Marsh04]

Size of the road doesn't matter . I didn't check your exact intersection but if there is a cross and no stop or give way sign on the right (that yellow triangle ) the person coming from the right has the right .

If you are on a road which has a name the other road must also have a name to be considered equal.

[rayoflight]

Thanks guys, I was clearly wrong then

No, I didn't google this. In England you almost always have markings for give way, in other situations roads which are bigger get right of way than streets joining. In US you have first come first go at unmarked cross roads. Today there was a queue on the other street so I just slowly slipped through which (rightly) annoyed the other driver!

Neither time it was a dangerous situation so there was no panic, but now I will know next time.

[riku2]

And if so is this a rule that cars on your right at cross roads always have right of way regardless of the size of street etc?

yes you have to give way to the right unless you are on a "priority road". priority roads are marked (probably some time earlier, so you've forgotten about it) by a yellow diamond with white outline. This is a totally stupid system in finland. At least in Holland they have this yellow diamond before each junction so you know who has priority and you don't have to remember about yellow diamonds 1km earlier. And if you have to give way to the right there is a yellow diamond with thick diagonal line, reminding you that you do not have priority (stop the press, road signs are made clear so that everyone knows what to do!!)
In finland you end up looking for the BACK of a give way sign on the road on the right to know you don't have to stop. The give way sign might be directly on edge to you , so almost invisible. Or someway back from the junction.

To make it more confusing you only give way to the right to public roads. Not private driveways, farm drives, shop exits. So you must evaluate the road on the right to decide if it's a public road or not. This is not always easy in the countryside where farm and shop roads might be bigger than residential roads.

The road junctions and signs in finland are a disaster. Here is a "t junction" near my house although at first sight it does look very much like a roundabout. And it's been like this for years.

https://goo.gl/maps/EfhGKQFrrkL2

but if there is a cross and no stop or give way sign on the right the person coming from the right has the right .

No, this is not true. if you are on a "priority road" then you don't stop for traffic from the right. The "give way to the right" rule also only applies if the speed limit is <50km/h (ie 40 or lower), in other words all roads with speed limit 50 and above are priority roads, as well as slower roads with the yellow diamond. They changed the law about 15 years ago to add this 40km/h rule although most places then just lowered the speed limit from 50 -> 40 to avoid changing the priority signs.

Example below of no give way sign on a side road, but traffic on the main road does not stop and give way to the right from the small side road. both are "named" roads. this is because the main road is a priority road (with 60km/h limit). it would be madness for traffic on the main road to stop for cars coming out of this pipsqueak side road.

https://goo.gl/maps/yXXvoyVz5312

[Rosamunda]

It is a complete change of habits for Brits because there are no priority rules like this in the UK. I really struggled when I moved to France which also has a "priorité à droite" rule. That rule applies even on roundabouts: if you are already on the roundabout you have to give way to traffic arriving on the roundabout - complete madness. When the "Kompassi" roundabout was built at the Suomenoja/Länsiväylä interesection, I noticed that many Finns were also stopping half way round the roundabout to give way but nowadays everyone seems to have got the hang of it and it is quite well signposted.

The speed-limit threshold is a good idea.

The tricky thing around Kamppi is trying to remember which roads are one way. I sometimes stop/slow down to look for vehicles coming from the right only to realise that it's a one-way street (so I have priority) - the danger being that a taxi driver will drive into the back of me!

[riku2]

I noticed that many Finns were also stopping half way round the roundabout to give way but nowadays everyone seems to have got the hang of it and it is quite well signposted.

I still see this from time to time with old aged drivers. And I have been a passenger in a car driven by an older (finnish) uncle in Kokkola who drove onto the roundabout without looking to his left whatsoever!

Recently they have introduced "turbo roundabouts" in Finland, these originated in Holland and i've seen at least one in Jarvenpaa.

http://www.turboroundabout.com/turbo-roundabout.html

although the first attempts were not done right (the centre should not be circular in a turbo roundabout but instead force cars to spiral out and impose lane discipline on drivers). Here the design encourages the red car at the bottom to sneak around the side of the roundabout without stopping.

https://goo.gl/maps/3xEdgDfawjH2

Below is a slightly better attempt (top part is correct but on the left they cannot make up their mind if the traffic going from 10 o'clock to six o'clock in the right hand lane must give way or has a bypass lane. there are triangles on the road surface to imply give way, but the solid white line and lane arrangement implies they do not have to stop

https://goo.gl/maps/zDXACNGLvoy

Finally in Jarvenpaa they got it totally correct, as per the dutch design.

[MikeD]

but if there is a cross and no stop or give way sign on the right the person coming from the right has the right .

No, this is not true. if you are on a "priority road" then you don't stop for traffic from the right. The "give way to the right" rule also only applies if the speed limit is <50km/h (ie 40 or lower), in other words all roads with speed limit 50 and above are priority roads, as well as slower roads with the yellow diamond. They changed the law about 15 years ago to add this 40km/h rule although most places then just lowered the speed limit from 50 -> 40 to avoid changing the priority signs.

Example below of no give way sign on a side road, but traffic on the main road does not stop and give way to the right from the small side road. both are "named" roads. this is because the main road is a priority road (with 60km/h limit). it would be madness for traffic on the main road to stop for cars coming out of this pipsqueak side road.

https://goo.gl/maps/yXXvoyVz5312

In your example the road is a "minor road" (something that is poorly defined in current legislation), and that is why those using the main road have the right of way. Of course, they could just put a give way sign there for the sake of clarity.

You give way to cars coming from the right regardless of the speed limit. If the speed limit is 50 km/h or higher, an advance warning sign needs to be used. Here's an example of an intersection where you might think you have the right of way but actually you do not. The speed limit is 50 km/h.
https://goo.gl/maps/w9DaVeWBXZK2

[Marsh04]

I also thought speed limit was not a factor you just follow the signs. But anyway now we have conflicting opinions so could Riku please come up with the source that 50 or above roads always have priority even if they are not marked to be priority roads?

[riku2]

could Riku please come up with the source that 50 or above roads always have priority even if they are not marked to be priority roads?

The rule that "give way to the right" should not exist for roads 50km/h and above comes from an email discussion I had with tiehallinto in 2001 ( I think they are now called Liikennevirasto). The relevant part they wrote is below:

Continuous priority roads

On public roads outside built up areas there are no intersection with right hand rule. All intersections are equipped with Stop-sign or Give Way -signs. Main roads are also equipped with yellow continuous priority road -sign. On municipalities streets the situation is different, also the right hand rule intersections exist. The situation will improve hopefully after year 2002, because the right hand rule intersection without advance warning signs will be allowed only on streets where the speed limit is 40 km/h or lower.

It's possible though that the signs are not placed correctly, fallen off or forgotten about or the municipality has not followed the guidelines correctly. But there should be no "give way to the right" if the limit is 50 or above unless there is an "advance warning sign" - I assume this means a sign facing the person who has to give way, not the "look for the back of a triangular sign" nonsense..

[riku2]

Here's an example of an intersection where you might think you have the right of way but actually you do not. The speed limit is 50 km/h.
https://goo.gl/maps/w9DaVeWBXZK2

I love the sign on the right hand lane there:

https://goo.gl/maps/9R4sazhA1ir

Four long lines of text in all capitals. Are drivers supposed to stop for a few seconds to read it.

But with regards to the original topic. I don't consider this junction to follow the "give way to the right" principle since there is a sign there saying who has priority, this thread is really discussion junctions where there is no sign explicitly stating the priority and you have to remember to give way to the right (or perhaps not give way depending on various factors).

As for the designer who put the crossroads sign there (when the junction is not actually a cross roads).. what is wrong with a giveway sign for the left two lanes and give way markings on the road surface. Then 100% of drivers would understand immediately what to do. Probably the cost of the paint is too much and they don't want to make junction design too obvious in Finland.

[riku2]

duplicate post

[Upphew]

As for the designer who put the crossroads sign there (when the junction is not actually a cross roads).. what is wrong with a giveway sign for the left two lanes and give way markings on the road surface. Then 100% of drivers would understand immediately what to do. Probably the cost of the paint is too much and they don't want to make junction design too obvious in Finland.

Paintings on the road + snow = no markings.

[riku2]

Paintings on the road + snow = no markings.

And the give way sign would disappear in the snow as well? even if covered in snow the sign is recognizable from it's shape, something that cannot be said for the crossroads sign with writing underneath it explaining what the priority is at the "crossroads".