smoo
"Speak Finnish like a restless native !" :
http://www.kisa.ca/finnish-phrases.html
I can't pronounce the name of the place where I live...
Why, it comes from - Lappeerranta, or rather from the Savo region.kalmisto wrote: All Finns do not say "Lappeeranta", many Finns pronounce "Lappeenranta" properly. I do not know where the sloppy translation comes from. ( dialect ? )
It was just announced that there are 5 244 858 of "us Finns", so that speaking of - or for - all of them is at least for me too big a task.
I noticed a mistake in my post. I should have written : "I do not know where the sloppy PRONUNCIATION comes from."Pecchio wrote:Why, it comes from - Lappeerranta, or rather from the Savo region.kalmisto wrote: All Finns do not say "Lappeeranta", many Finns pronounce "Lappeenranta" properly. I do not know where the sloppy translation comes from. ( dialect ? )
It was just announced that there are 5 244 858 of "us Finns", so that speaking of - or for - all of them is at least for me too big a task.
I have heard people say "Lappeerranta" but I have never heard anybody say "Lappeeranta".
kalmisto wrote: I have heard people say "Lappeerranta" but I have never heard anybody say "Lappeeranta".
I have! It's them foreigners!! Hahaha!Now as to the main course of rowan porridge, I'll offer the original poster a small piece of comfort: I, as a card-carrying Finn, have always had awkward moments with the word 'pihlaja'. I have no trouble saying the Aitch, but I usually spit out Pih-ja-la, which is wrong. So I will never move to Pihlajamäki, Pihlajisto or any such place. I will accept no friends or acquaintances thence neither, but in smoo's case, I shall make an exception. Now you have two Finnish friends: the pronunciation machine and the undersigned.
Another Restless Native
Heslinki, Soumi.
What version if Finnish is NOT 'dialect'?kalmisto wrote:All Finns do not say "Lappeeranta", many Finns pronounce "Lappeenranta" properly. I do not know where the sloppy translation comes from. ( dialect ? )
Then there'll have to be an explanation as to why it's not pronounced as written..."Lappeenranta" is not a difficult word for Finns to pronounce.
Sometimes it helps to practice saying words starting from the end : start saying ja - then laja - then pihlaja.
Of course, I'm with you that the problem is the transition between H and L. The finnish H is different from the english H. If you think about it, when you say H (have) in english, the sound comes from your throat really. In finnish it's a bit more in the mouth, towards the upper palate. OK, this is weird but try it and tell me if it works:
1. Say L , not as in /el/ but just as you would say only L at the beginning of the word London. Only the /l/ sound, nothing else. Stop there, don't move. Notice how you put your tongue almost at the end of your palate, before your upper front teeth.
2 Now, say /l/ once again, hold it. Don't move your tongue. you can stop saying /l/ but don't move your tongue. try to say /h/ from this position, still holding your tongue as if it was a /l/. You should feel the air hitting the same spot where you tongue is. The air should not be felt in the throat, just in the mouth.
That should be similar to a finnish H. Because the finnish H is more anterior, more similar to the position for /l/, that's why they can be pronounced together. It would be impossible to pronounce an english /h/ and /l/ together, they come from different areas.
Once you nail that, and manage to reproduce it, it should become easier to combine the two.
Hopefully it makes sense. by the way, in case you wonder if I'm mad, I'm a language teacher with a passion for teaching phonetics (sounds) in unconventional ways. Just ignore me if it doesn't work.
Of course, I'm with you that the problem is the transition between H and L. The finnish H is different from the english H. If you think about it, when you say H (have) in english, the sound comes from your throat really. In finnish it's a bit more in the mouth, towards the upper palate. OK, this is weird but try it and tell me if it works:
1. Say L , not as in /el/ but just as you would say only L at the beginning of the word London. Only the /l/ sound, nothing else. Stop there, don't move. Notice how you put your tongue almost at the end of your palate, before your upper front teeth.
2 Now, say /l/ once again, hold it. Don't move your tongue. you can stop saying /l/ but don't move your tongue. try to say /h/ from this position, still holding your tongue as if it was a /l/. You should feel the air hitting the same spot where you tongue is. The air should not be felt in the throat, just in the mouth.
That should be similar to a finnish H. Because the finnish H is more anterior, more similar to the position for /l/, that's why they can be pronounced together. It would be impossible to pronounce an english /h/ and /l/ together, they come from different areas.
Once you nail that, and manage to reproduce it, it should become easier to combine the two.
Hopefully it makes sense. by the way, in case you wonder if I'm mad, I'm a language teacher with a passion for teaching phonetics (sounds) in unconventional ways. Just ignore me if it doesn't work.
micky
>> What an incredibly useful program. I will talk to it and it will be my first Finnish friend. <<
Copy the text below, paste it in the text field of your newfound friend, then click on "Kuuntele puhe" and your friend will sing something for you - in broken English :
-KOR-3-RAU-8-VEN15 -RAU99 -NUO(C,2) twing -NUO(C,2) keell -NUO(G,2) twing -NUO(G,2) keell -NUO(A,2) liitt -NUO(A,2) teell -NUO(G,2) staaaaaaaaaa -NUO(F,2) haau -NUO(F,2) aaii -NUO(E,2) uaann -NUO(E,2) dääää -NUO(D,2) uoott -NUO(D,2) juuu -NUO(C,2) aaaaaaaaaa
Copy the text below, paste it in the text field of your newfound friend, then click on "Kuuntele puhe" and your friend will sing something for you - in broken English :
-KOR-3-RAU-8-VEN15 -RAU99 -NUO(C,2) twing -NUO(C,2) keell -NUO(G,2) twing -NUO(G,2) keell -NUO(A,2) liitt -NUO(A,2) teell -NUO(G,2) staaaaaaaaaa -NUO(F,2) haau -NUO(F,2) aaii -NUO(E,2) uaann -NUO(E,2) dääää -NUO(D,2) uoott -NUO(D,2) juuu -NUO(C,2) aaaaaaaaaa
>> What version of Finnish is not dialect? <<
The standard version.
Here is some information on the standard version of Finnish and the spoken language :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_la ... al_Finnish
Here is some info on Finnish dialects :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language#Dialects
The standard version.
Here is some information on the standard version of Finnish and the spoken language :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_la ... al_Finnish
Here is some info on Finnish dialects :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language#Dialects
That there exists a standard version of the Finnish language is due to clever German engineers of language. It's DIN 51175-0.kalmisto wrote:>> What version of Finnish is not dialect? <<
The standard version.
A standard version is in my bold opinion - a fairytale. It is a Prussian optimum that keeps hovering over poor speakers' heads. Only Latin might have a certain standard, but that's because it's in formaldehyde.
But thanks a bunch to E. Lönnrot and them guys anyway! The work they did back then was after all priceless, nothing wrong there.
Me: "Lappeenranta" is not a difficult word for Finns to pronounce.
You : Then there'll have to be an explanation as to why it's not pronounced as written...
There are many kinds of Finnish. By that I mean dialects. Some people say "sie" instead of "sinä" and "mie" instead of "minä"( which is standard Finnish ). It would be wrong to say that these people pronounce "sinä" as "sie" and "minä" as "mie".
"Sie" and "mie" are dialectical variations of "sinä" and "minä" and you very seldom see them in writing because all Finnish newspapers and 99.99% per cent of books are written in standard Finnish. People who say "Lappeerranta" speak a dialect and this does not necessarily mean that it would be difficult for them to say "Lappeenranta".
There are people in London who say "eavy" for "heavy" and "umble" for "humble". Is it because they find the letter "h" difficult to pronounce?
I do not think so. It is a dialectal thing.
You : Then there'll have to be an explanation as to why it's not pronounced as written...
There are many kinds of Finnish. By that I mean dialects. Some people say "sie" instead of "sinä" and "mie" instead of "minä"( which is standard Finnish ). It would be wrong to say that these people pronounce "sinä" as "sie" and "minä" as "mie".
"Sie" and "mie" are dialectical variations of "sinä" and "minä" and you very seldom see them in writing because all Finnish newspapers and 99.99% per cent of books are written in standard Finnish. People who say "Lappeerranta" speak a dialect and this does not necessarily mean that it would be difficult for them to say "Lappeenranta".
There are people in London who say "eavy" for "heavy" and "umble" for "humble". Is it because they find the letter "h" difficult to pronounce?
I do not think so. It is a dialectal thing.
Firstly my point of course is that 'standard Finnish' is itself a dialect.
And for the other issue, my claim is simply that my girlfriend and various friends of hers (she says) commonly condense the word 'Lappeenranta' in the way I described, especially in colloquial conversation. I do not claim that this word is impossible to pronounce, merely that it apparently presents enough difficulty for a random sample of native Finns with normal high school and university educations that they will omit the combination 'nr' in casual usage. Thus I ascribe it to the diffculty of the sound, rather than to 'sloppiness'.
...and of course the reason I mentioned it in the first place was to reassure smoo that there are degees of pronouncibility in Finnish, and even Finns cut corners on some words due to it.
And for the other issue, my claim is simply that my girlfriend and various friends of hers (she says) commonly condense the word 'Lappeenranta' in the way I described, especially in colloquial conversation. I do not claim that this word is impossible to pronounce, merely that it apparently presents enough difficulty for a random sample of native Finns with normal high school and university educations that they will omit the combination 'nr' in casual usage. Thus I ascribe it to the diffculty of the sound, rather than to 'sloppiness'.
...and of course the reason I mentioned it in the first place was to reassure smoo that there are degees of pronouncibility in Finnish, and even Finns cut corners on some words due to it.
Brilliant! I'll have him I'll have him singing "flower of scotland" with a jamaican accent by next week...Copy the text below, paste it in the text field of your newfound friend, then click on "Kuuntele puhe" and your friend will sing something for you - in broken English :
Pecchio, I am honored, and hereby promise to avoid all subjects relating to the dreaded tree in any future verbal exchanges. Can you sing as well as my other friend, however?but I usually spit out Pih-ja-la, which is wrong. So I will never move to Pihlajamäki, Pihlajisto or any such place. I will accept no friends or acquaintances thence neither, but in smoo's case, I shall make an exception. Now you have two Finnish friends: the pronunciation machine and the undersigned.
It did! Or at least I can tell already that it will work if I keep practising. Here is something that is interesting. When I pronounce the Scots "Loch", the "ch" sound is in my throat and also towards the very back of my mouth. When I was trying to pronounce what I thought was the same "ch" sound as a stopgap measure towards being able to say "Pih", i.e. by saying "Pich" instead, the "ch" was actually at the front of my mouth, with the middle of my tongue close to the roof. I can't quite figure out why I do it completely differently if the preceeding vowel is i (in the Finnish sense) instead of o, or for that matter why I thought that both "ch" sounds were the same until I thought about it. Anyway, I now realise that there is a fairly small transition between the Pich "ch" sound and the Pih "h" sound. It's just a case of changing the position of the middle/front of the toungue slightly, and in fact if you try to go from "ch" to "L" in a fluid motion, you actually pass through the Finnish "h" sound as you have described it. So I just need to find that point and build on it. I think....Of course, I'm with you that the problem is the transition between H and L. The finnish H is different from the english H. If you think about it, when you say H (have) in english, the sound comes from your throat really. In finnish it's a bit more in the mouth, towards the upper palate. OK, this is weird but try it and tell me if it works:
I don't want to get too involved in this, but it's a source of some contention in britain whether the so called "received pronunciation" is "standard" and, by extension, "correct". Generally people who speak this way (mostly the middle and upper classes in the south of England) simply can't understand how other people can think (as they rightly do) that the designation of RP as "standard" is simply a historical convention. For them, RP is saying the words "as they are written", and other accents obviously diverge from this. Of course in English, unlike Finnish, there are no consistent rules for pronouncing particular letters (vowels in particular), even within any given accent or dialect. I actually think that if you consider the way vowels are pronounced in various british accents, the northern dialects tend to be nearer to a hypothectical international consensus than is RP. In this sense, guides to pronunciation that use RP as a reference point do more harm than good, in my (scottish) opinion.A standard version is in my bold opinion - a fairytale.
No, but I'm very good at accepting pints of beer that will give your first friend a syntax error immediately, instead of the following morning.smoo wrote:Can you sing as well as my other friend, however?
Unbeknownst (finally I get to use that word, yippee!) to most of the world's population, there actually exist two variants of /h/ in the Finnish language. The first is indeed used after /i/, the second after, say /o/. They are called 'allophones', if I remember correctly.smoo wrote:I can't quite figure out why I do it completely differently if the preceeding vowel is i (in the Finnish sense) instead of o, or for that matter why I thought that both "ch" sounds were the same until I thought about it.
And now, it's just 'waiting for Micky'. Se mi sono sbagliato, mi corregga prego.
smoo
Could Finnish spelling rules be applied to English? Is there dyslexia in Finland? :
http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j25/finnish.php
Dr.Davies writes: "Finnish is spelt exactly as it is pronounced,and is pronounced exactly as it is spelt?" This is not entirely true.
Could Finnish spelling rules be applied to English? Is there dyslexia in Finland? :
http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j25/finnish.php
Dr.Davies writes: "Finnish is spelt exactly as it is pronounced,and is pronounced exactly as it is spelt?" This is not entirely true.