Bad news for international students(tuition fees fr masters)

[sammy]

Swedes' generous public funds dry

We have, apparently http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2010080 ... 3_uu.shtml

... actually, the Finns going to study in Sweden usually get their student grant from Finland (KELA) - but yes the combination of no tuition fees, no entrance exams and studies in a familiar language (Swedish) has been a strong incentive for many. It would be interesting to know how many of them stay there, find a job etc.

More Finnish students still go to the UK, though... and one way or another they need to cough up the tuition fees there, since the KELA grant won't cover them, it's only barely enough for living expences. There aren't undergraduate scholarships for studies abroad as such... but at least in the UK, Finns (as EU citizens) can apply for a tuition fee loan from Student Finance England... which does not mean money in the student's pockets, it only means that SFE pays their tuition fees to the university and once the student has graduated & found employment it's payback time. So.. again, a different system...

[seja]

I don't believe that it should be a loan. Students would pay for tuition out of their own pockets and then receive some of the money that they paid each year. This way if a student paid €20.000 for tuition and stayed and worked for two years they would receive €5.000 back. There is no loan, so there would be no loan cancellation if they return to their home country.

[Nitro]

Unless you oppose the idea of introducing tuition fees on principle, I think it's too early to discuss them seriously, because everything will depend on how much the universities will charge. Tuition fees exist in Germany and the UK, for example, but I guess most people will agree that in the former they're pretty much non-existent, while in the latter they can be a major obstacle to getting a good education.

The impact will vary depending on income levels, of course; personally, I could say that anything up to a couple of thousands a year would be negligible, anything between that and, say, five thousands would make me look for other options first, and anything above that would make me exclude Finland from my plans altogether. But it's different for different students, of course.

One more thing: I believe gratitude should be extended only to those people who actually want to help or are at least indifferent. If the Finnish government and Finland as a country make citizens pay for the education of international students, I've very grateful to the Finnish government and Finland, but it doesn't mean I should feel gratitude towards every John or Jane Doe, especially if they make it totally clear that they'd rather not pay a single red eurocent.

[Pursuivant]

John and Jane vote in the elections.

[Nitro]

Correct, but that doesn't mean they vote specifically for the education of international students, nor that they are necessarily in favor of it. Some are, some don't really care, some aren't.

[Pursuivant]

So you expect John and Jane to just continue voting for a free ride to ungrateful beggars?

[Nitro]

So you expect John and Jane to just continue voting for a free ride to ungrateful beggars?

I expect nothing of anyone.

When international students apply to Finnish universities, they deal not with the average man in the street, but with entities: the admissions office, first, then the universities, then with the Finnish embassies. All of these represent, to some degree or another, Finland as a state, and the Finnish government, and I believe that's where the gratitude should be extended to, as well as, of course, to those individual people who support this or at least do not mind, but not those who clearly oppose it. Why should I be grateful to someone who's only paying for the education of international students against his/her will and because he/she is basically forced to by the state? International students really can't help those people with their taxation problem - it's strictly between them and their government. Taxes are a universal problem in any country, you're not the first, nor the last.

[Nitro]

Correct, but that doesn't mean they vote specifically for the education of international students, nor that they are necessarily in favor of it. Some are, some don't really care, some aren't.

Jane, here, and if I had the choice of voting for or against paying out for international students' free tuition, I think its clear where I stand.

What I do care about is the educational system for our home-grown kids and students of higher level education. To keep the standard of education at the level its at now (or to slightly improve it ie class size, more seats, low cost housing, school psychologists, support for special needs kids, etc) there needs to be more money in the operational budgets.

Municipalities are all deeply reducing educational budgets and programs, support, etc are being cut from our kids' schools and support system.

If our schools districts are cutting budgets there also needs to be reductions in money spent all across the educational system which includes money going toward international students.

If we had tons of cash to throw into the ed system and there were no cuts anywhere in our system then by all means we could help those outside the country who need it the most but certainly not at the expense of our own children/young adults' education.

I respect your opinion, although I can't say much for lack of knowledge about the situation with the educational system and without listening to the local opponents of your opinion. That being said, I was talking about a completely different thing there, i.e. moral issues.

[kimster46]

So you expect John and Jane to just continue voting for a free ride to ungrateful beggars?

beggars if i have a choice , i would vote for helping people standing in long queues organize by http://leipajono.blogspot.com/p/ruoka-apua.html

it would be nice to know numbers like how many non EU's are getting free education in Finland . Not sure how reliable stats in this article , but it says http://www.universityworldnews.com/arti ... 2309222410

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Foreign students made up about 3.8% of all university enrolments in 2008 but half of these came from Europe, and most would not be required to pay fees. In other words, based on 2008 figures, about 96% of the student body would be tuition fee-exempt. The fees received would represent only about 1% of the total income received by universities.

[sammy]

it would be nice to know numbers like how many non EU's are getting free education in Finland

There are about 12.600 foreign degree students here in Funland altogether, a bit over half of them at UAS's (that would mostly mean Bachelor's level)... see for example this and this pdf stats file. Percentages of EU and other students can be seen from this pdf sheet.

I'd assume the figures in your quote also come from Statistics Finland - which in turn get these degree student stats from the HEI student registers... which I think are quite reliable.

For those of you who know Finnish, this might make interesting reading... http://www.hyy.helsinki.fi/tiedostot/6%20vaitetta.pdf ... but as said, speculation is a bit late now since the tuition fee trial period has been decided on (mind you, the original title of this thread is a bit misleading - the fee issue is hardly any "news" anymore )

The interesting bit will be when the institutions -and students- actually have some experience of the fee policies a few years from now... and what the government then decides...

[sammy]

Not all foreigners come to Finland to take advantage of the system and many who do come here to study intend to work while studying or after graduation

How very true - however, sadly the "public opinion" often picks up on those who do merely "take advantage" - similarly as Finns are often perceived as "morose alcoholics" just because some are... unfortunately, and this tells us something about not only of our times but human nature in general, the good guys and gals seldom get noticed or end up in the news

Anyway it would be a bit naive to think that the higher education institutions would not be aware of the intrinsic value, the intellectual merits of international cooperation in education, mobility of students, and all that. The fee issue is only marginally connected with those values; it's not as if the HEI's "only want the foreign students so that they can be charged fees". No matter how high ideals one holds, there's no such thing as free education, someone always pays for it... IMO that's the difficult equation this tuition fee trial period was set as one possible (partial) answer to. But yes it's a very complex issue to which there's probably no clear-cut answer... swings and roundabouts, you know...

[Tiwaz]

Not all foreigners come to Finland to take advantage of the system and many who do come here to study intend to work while studying or after graduation but they cannot
get a job because of many Finnish people have prejudices against foreigners. The foreign students leave Finland in frustration because they could not get a job and then Finnish people bitch that they were only here to get a free education.

This is one of the pet issues of mine. Foreigners bitching and moaning how Finns are prejudiced and racist.

How many of those foreign students of yours put extra hour every day or week to learning two essential skills in working in Finland...

Namely, Finnish language and Finnish culture? Hmm?

Based on what I have seen, very goddamn few. They just buzz around in nice international crowd, speak English and essentially have good time. No problem there.

Then, when these spoiled little bitches graduate and enter The Real World, where way over 90% of people they have to interact with prefer to speak Finnish and live Finnish life...

Well, at that point they refuse to grasp that their time spent in international circles did nothing to prepare them to life in Finnish community. It did not prepare them to work in Finnish community. And instead of kicking themselves for stupidity, they whine abour FINNS being racist and prejudiced to have preference for people who can interact in Finnish language and according to Finnish cultural norms.

[sammy]

This is one of the pet issues of mine. Foreigners bitching and moaning how Finns are prejudiced and racist

But some are, and exactly the same is true of some foreigners towards us. It's hardly fair to say that either "side" would be blameless...

...still I sort of see what you mean. It's a difficult equation, however, since it would also be rather naive to think that "furriners" moving to Finland should somehow abandon their own language, culture and identity. Sure, if I were to move to Italy the first things on my priority list would be to learn the language etc - but despite this I rather fear that I'd still be considered a foreigner for a long long time, because just "knowing" about this or that aspect of the "Italian culture" (whatever that means) does not as such a) make me "Italian" or b) eliminate the way I think, behave, and what have you because of my personal / cultural background.

Besides - moving to a foreign country and an "alien" culture is quite a big thing. Haven't done it myself really so who am I to say... guess it also depends on the person. Some actively avoid the ex-pat bubble, some require it to survive. The question is, should only those with the "correct mindset" be allowed to go and study in Finland / Britain / country X? Who decides what that correct mindset would be? Remember that when we talk about students, no-one at the university asks, when the admissions are decided on, what the student will do after graduating. And why should they - it's not their business really, the institutions can't dictate what the student should do once he or she is awarded the degree. It's exactly the same when Finnish students go and study for a degree in Sweden, UK, the Netherlands etc - they are NOT expected to become Swedes or Britons, or even to stay in the country when their studies are over. Do you think that those Finnish students who do not plan to stay in the UK for example after studying there, should not be allowed to study there? After all, they need to pay tuition fees just as the Brits do (non-EU students pay too, but more) whether they stay or not.

I mean, those that want to stay there probably do have themselves to blame a bit if they do not make the language/culture effort you mention - but it's not fair to assume all would even think of staying.

Which, incidentally, is probably one of the reasons for the fee trial...

[Tiwaz]

But some are, and exactly the same is true of some foreigners towards us. It's hardly fair to say that either "side" would be blameless...

And have I ever stated opposite? Alas, claims of racism and prejudice have become default answer of great many foreigners, and Finns who like to consider themselves "enlightened" whenever mentioned foreigners fail.

...still I sort of see what you mean. It's a difficult equation, however, since it would also be rather naive to think that "furriners" moving to Finland should somehow abandon their own language, culture and identity. Sure, if I were to move to Italy the first things on my priority list would be to learn the language etc - but despite this I rather fear that I'd still be considered a foreigner for a long long time, because just "knowing" about this or that aspect of the "Italian culture" (whatever that means) does not as such a) make me "Italian" or b) eliminate the way I think, behave, and what have you because of my personal / cultural background.

Who is asking that? Nobody. You are trying to put up a strawman argument here.
Let's be honest, I do not think that about 80-90% of foreigners can ever reach level where they would be "Finns".

This does not mean they cannot learn to speak Finnish or act along lines of Finnish community.

Foreigner is foreigner, but if they do not even know how to present themselves in Finnish society, how the hell they could be hired for any job which requires some kind of contact with natives?

You do not need to lose your own cultural background to be able to live in country with other culture. I myself believe it to be rather impossible even, as culture forms very fundamental part of our personality and identity.

But you CAN learn to adjust your behavior to fit local culture. Call it pretending if you wish, or whatever else.

I mean, those that want to stay there probably do have themselves to blame a bit if they do not make the language/culture effort you mention - but it's not fair to assume all would even think of staying.

Which, incidentally, is probably one of the reasons for the fee trial...

I do not care if they stay or not. But then again, I fully support requirement for them to pay their tuition fees, and preferably ones which should cover notable part of their studies.

As for Finns studying abroad. I do not see why they should be treated any differently. Each nation will have the laws and systems it wants. If they expect tuition fee from Finns, let Finns who want to study there come up with that cash. If not, fine.

I do not see any point in concerning ourselves over how other countries do things. Sometimes they may have ideas which could be useful to implement in Finland, but doing things just because others do it is idiotic.

[Nitro]

Remember that when we talk about students, no-one at the university asks, when the admissions are decided on, what the student will do after graduating. And why should they - it's not their business really, the institutions can't dictate what the student should do once he or she is awarded the degree.

Hmm, actually, I'm pretty sure I was asked this question during the interview, so I guess there are exceptions.