Refugees

[Honest]

It's not about who they are, your point was that camps are a safe place so people living in camps don't qualify for asylum. Instead of accepting your lack of knowledge you are arguing only for the sack of argument

[Piet]

Same as now, you talk about boats from Libia to italy I guess, (or the few boats from Syria to Turkey), because all other routes don't need boats. how many of the 800.000 refugees in Germany (this year) do you think took a boat, my guess would be not even 1 %.

... and what's your guess, what routes 99% of them took?

From Syria and Iraq to Turkey and then to Greece. By land..

But I have to admit that since Greece shortly ago closed the border with Turkey, more and more are trying to get to Greece with little boats (without human trafficking involved, just with bad little fishing boats, in Finland we would not even call it a boat).

[Piet]

It's not about who they are, your point was that camps are a safe place so people living in camps don't qualify for asylum. Instead of accepting your lack of knowledge you are arguing only for the sack of argument

As said, they might qualify for relocation and redistribution by UN. That means if someone would leave the refugee camp by them selves, one could argue that this is the same as moving from Sweden to Finland while they should register in the first country of arrival.
So we could argue that a refugee from a camp is not by definition entitled to asylum in an EU country, THAT is what I said.

You might reconsider the qualification of my knowledge as a lack of it in this matter, hence I actually worked for the UN in conjunction with the people that actually go to the camps for interviews with refugees and decide to grant or deny a relocation (so not every refugee is by default invited) based on i.e. their Family composition and origin and more important, what they can tell about themselves and their honesty in this.

By rule one can state that a refugee camp is not an origin from where you can automatically can get asylum in an EU state. Especially when the UN is involved in the camp.

So again just pointing out the flaws in the argument, but it seems that it becomes more important to defend one-selves against me pointing out the flaws in the arguments made than the actual topic. so please try to stay on topic...and prove me wrong if you think I am wrong in calling the arguments made as flawed rather that residing to making remarks like in .. see quote.

Thats all.... for now

[sky2]

From Syria and Iraq to Turkey and then to Greece. By land..

The vast majority of the nearly half-million migrants and refugees who have entered Europe by sea this year have arrived from Turkey, according to the United Nations.

But I have to admit that since Greece shortly ago closed the border with Turkey, more and more are trying to get to Greece with little boats (without human trafficking involved, just with bad little fishing boats, in Finland we would not even call it a boat).

Boats are the smugglers’ essential tool and they have used a variety in their quest to keep costs down.

The largest profits, however, go to powerful Turkish smugglers on the coast who oversee the boats, according to the Syrians they employ and Greek maritime officials who track their activities.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/27/world ... shops.html

[Piet]

From Syria and Iraq to Turkey and then to Greece. By land..

The vast majority of the nearly half-million migrants and refugees who have entered Europe by sea this year have arrived from Turkey, according to the United Nations.

But I have to admit that since Greece shortly ago closed the border with Turkey, more and more are trying to get to Greece with little boats (without human trafficking involved, just with bad little fishing boats, in Finland we would not even call it a boat).

Boats are the smugglers’ essential tool and they have used a variety in their quest to keep costs down.

The largest profits, however, go to powerful Turkish smugglers on the coast who oversee the boats, according to the Syrians they employ and Greek maritime officials who track their activities.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/27/world ... shops.html

Thank you, finally someone that comes with sources... even-tough when you read more carefully, half a million refugees that crossed the sea, but already 800.000 in Germany this year alone, so how much is actually the amount of refugees that use traffickers, sadly I did not see any percentage about that... but I have to admit that they are more than I calculated before..

[Beep_Boop]

I like how this, like almost every argument on the internet, has become an argument of guesses and feelings vs. common sense and facts.
I'm never surprised by how little people know about how the world works outside their little bubbles. It's kind of funny. I like to joke about it and think of myself as better than those people, there I was, less than 5-6 years ago, having the same exact mentality. I guess we just grow out of it at some point.

Aside from condescension, I have a sourced fact. The 800k number you keep parroting, Piet, is a projection for 2015, not the actual number. Germany has received 450k of those illegal migrants so far, not 800k.
Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34175795
More numbers and info from the UNHCR: http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

I really hope the last few signs of ignorance show all parties in this discussion that you really need to know what you're talking about, or at least Google enough until you do.

[Honest]

From Syria and Iraq to Turkey and then to Greece. By land..

The vast majority of the nearly half-million migrants and refugees who have entered Europe by sea this year have arrived from Turkey, according to the United Nations.

But I have to admit that since Greece shortly ago closed the border with Turkey, more and more are trying to get to Greece with little boats (without human trafficking involved, just with bad little fishing boats, in Finland we would not even call it a boat).

Boats are the smugglers’ essential tool and they have used a variety in their quest to keep costs down.

The largest profits, however, go to powerful Turkish smugglers on the coast who oversee the boats, according to the Syrians they employ and Greek maritime officials who track their activities.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/27/world ... shops.html

Thank you, finally someone that comes with sources... even-tough when you read more carefully, half a million refugees that crossed the sea, but already 800.000 in Germany this year alone, so how much is actually the amount of refugees that use traffickers, sadly I did not see any percentage about that... but I have to admit that they are more than I calculated before..

You are clearly trying to punch above the limits of your capabilities. You have very little knowledge about the issue you are pretending to be an expert of. Where is your source that there are 800 000 refugees in Germany "already"?

[Piet]

I like how this, like almost every argument on the internet, has become an argument of guesses and feelings vs. common sense and facts.
I'm never surprised by how little people know about how the world works outside their little bubbles. It's kind of funny. I like to joke about it and think of myself as better than those people, there I was, less than 5-6 years ago, having the same exact mentality. I guess we just grow out of it at some point.

Aside from condescension, I have a sourced fact. The 800k number you keep parroting, Piet, is a projection for 2015, not the actual number. Germany has received 450k of those illegal migrants so far, not 800k.
Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34175795
More numbers and info from the UNHCR: http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

I really hope the last few signs of ignorance show all parties in this discussion that you really need to know what you're talking about, or at least Google enough until you do.

You are totally right, I misread the figure of 800K but so is the figure of half a million by see stated by someone else.. as you said.. in the discussion one tends to exaggerate, I just read it wrong and admit that, but I did read the figure and the point of this discussion was that it was said that it is logical to leave your wives and kids behind and then get them later... from there it goes off topic into figures that have nothing to do with this about smugglers.

So I did some google-ing or should I say duckduckgoing as you advised, instead of trusting solely on my apparently outdated information

So I got some more figures for everyone.. 380.000 refugees came to Europe by sea, half from Syria http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/s ... -to-europe only 3% is Iraqi (that is about 10.000 Iraqi in this year for all of Europe).

Hungary and surrounding countries already took 560K refugees so far, Germany might get 1 million this year http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/m ... 06005.html

Still you cannot (because that was the point) tell me that all these people were brought here by human trafficking, and how much I search on it... I do not get any percentages above 10% anywhere in any group of refugees from Iraq or Afghanistan or Somalia (Finland greatest influx).

so to come back to the discussion about not taking your family with you because of human traffickers, lets assume for the calculation 10% from 10.000 Iraqi is 1000 Iraqi in all of Europe in a year.
How much did already arrive in Finland? and how much is male?
Right.... so that cannot be an argument of why .....
And that was my point...

So besides all the wrong or ill figures used by everyone here, it stands as a Fact that it is weird and illogical to see so much Iraqi male refugees and almost none female or children.

So can we please go back to that discussion instead of pointing out semantics and guessed numbers (and yeah I am to blame for that too)

[Beep_Boop]

Still you cannot (because that was the point) tell me that all these people were brought here by human trafficking

I don't really need to tell you anything. I couldn't care less if all the illegal migrants drown in the sea or if all of Middle East and Africa population arrive in Europe; to me, that all is the same. I care about one thing; facts. Other than that, you all can stretch this pointless discussion 100 more pages. I'll still pop in and correct some of wrong things said. Carry on.

Edit: Oh, and you seem to be confused on the meaning of "human trafficking" and the difference between that and "human smuggling". Please check this helpful UNODC page https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/human-tr ... cking.html

[Upphew]

Only a very veeeery small fraction of those illegal migrants are coming to Europe by planes. The vast, overwhelming, majority are either crossing the Mediterranean or somehow smuggled through the Turkish borders to Greece. Airliner crews check passports and visa/RP before letting you in planes, especially when coming from outside EU.

Well, Swedes try to solve that problem: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/ ... IS20150910

[irnbru]

Why is it when you disagree with letting a load of unpleasant religious nutters in to Finland lefties always accuse you of being ignorant. It's their default argument. "You're just ignorant about what Syrians/Iraqis/Libyans etc are like", "You said 750 000 are coming, actually it's 650 000" despite the fact that they don't know what first hand experience you have (probably a lot more than them).

Intolerance is another of their favorites, despite the fact that the people they want to let in are some of the most intolerant people ever to have walked the earth.

[Oho]

If the situation is not life threatening the guy is an economic opportunist and should be sent back.

Well the boat trip from Turkey to Greece (Kos or Lesbos) is few miles, not exactly a daunting ocean crossing, and can really only be dangerous for, well, someone who has taken all but complete leave of his senses.

Lesbos:
https://www.google.fi/maps/place/Mitili ... f70f63c014

Kos:
https://www.google.fi/maps/place/Kos,+G ... f8469bdcdd

[Beep_Boop]

Why is it when you disagree with letting a load of unpleasant religious nutters in to Finland lefties always accuse you of being ignorant.

Here's a real reason why I think you're an ignorant (not an insult, it's a temporary state that can be fixed by learning):
In almost every single comment I called then illegal migrants, and on multiple occasions, in a number of different threads here, I expressed my complete disagreement with letting them in. Yet you still crafted this weak argument of someone on the opposing side calling the other side an ignorant.

One is an ignorant when he/she argues without knowing the basic of facts. Just like you showed ignorance by pretending as if the ignorance allegations are fueled by disagreement rather than a response to an actual lack of knowledge. Once you learn those basic facts, then you're capable of participating in a reasonable, logical discussion.

Once again: All refugees can go and purposefully drown themselves in the ocean of they like, or the whole native population of Europe can suddenly disappear, or nothing changes, or everything collapse.. I don't care. Stop pretending that your opinion is the reason you're being called an ignorant. I don't disagree with your opinion, and I still think your facts are wrong (not necessarily you, of course.. anybody who presents wrong information as facts).

[sky2]

Why is it when you disagree with letting a load of unpleasant religious nutters in to Finland lefties always accuse you of being ignorant.

... and here's another reason why you are ignorant. You are discriminating based on someone's religious beliefs.

[Piet]

Still you cannot (because that was the point) tell me that all these people were brought here by human trafficking

I don't really need to tell you anything. I couldn't care less if all the illegal migrants drown in the sea or if all of Middle East and Africa population arrive in Europe; to me, that all is the same. I care about one thing; facts. Other than that, you all can stretch this pointless discussion 100 more pages. I'll still pop in and correct some of wrong things said. Carry on.

Edit: Oh, and you seem to be confused on the meaning of "human trafficking" and the difference between that and "human smuggling". Please check this helpful UNODC page https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/human-tr ... cking.html

You don't need to tell me anything at all adnan, it is just a matter of speech / expression.. something that clearly gets lost in the translation of someone's native language as well (counts apparently for both of us )
Ok lets stop pointless discussions about semantics all the way and understand that in this context, with human smuggling and trafficking the same thing is meant ..
Otherwise my point would still be valid that not even 1% is human trafficking.
So thanks for popping in now and then and until the next time you think we need that.

What I tried to explain is that using the Human trafficking / smuggling being unsafe for the family, as an legit excuse for the reason that the majority of the refugees are male is wrong. As argued here, if you are really in danger and therefore qualify as a refugee, you would take your family with you or stay with them.

Given the facts we discovered so far, we could suspect that the majority of the (Iraqi) refugees that came to Finland lately, is here on invalid grounds, then also have a big mouth about their wishes and "demands" and even threaten to go into hunger strike and rally others to do the same, when Finland decides to adjust their asylum procedures to EU standards and guidelines. This ungrateful and almost greedy behaviour is a really bad thing for the refugees that actually really need a safe place and it gives the refugees in general a bad name..

But than again, Finnish people are considered to be Greedy too so maybe they belong here..and we, the good behaving, trying to adjust to Finnish standards Immigrants do not belong here..
http://yle.fi/uutiset/finns_on_finns_we ... nt/7370176

Why is it when you disagree with letting a load of unpleasant religious nutters in to Finland lefties always accuse you of being ignorant.

... and here's another reason why you are ignorant. You are discriminating based on someone's religious beliefs.

I can understand why people do that:

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.