Hi all! Sometimes I wonder how do people choose between Finland and Sweden - those folks who do not move in because of falling in love with a Finn or Nokia. I am just provoking little discussion: is Finland different from Sweden? If so, do you think there are major or minor differences?
I have heard a phrase that " Swedes do not lie but Finns tell you things straight as they are "(means that they speak out their minds). I kind of agree with this. For me, both countries are very important and I am proud actually of both of them. What about your opinions?
Why move to Finland, not Sweden?
Well, on a large scale both countries are very similar. I've lived in Finland for a long time but I haven't lived in Sweden at all. In my humble opinion some of the differences are:toukokuu wrote: I am just provoking little discussion: is Finland different from Sweden? If so, do you think there are major or minor differences?
- Sweden has a more dominant history, though Finland has a remarkable history as well. This might result in Sweden being historically more worldwide respected country.
- Some Finns tend to take Swedes as a role model. This especially happens in politics. Maybe then we can say that Swedes might have more confidence in themselves. On the other hand, Finns might be more modest and Swedes might be more arrogant because of the same reason.
- Swedes might be more open and tolerant to different nationalities/cultures.
- Sweden dominates the 80s pop scene if you are into it.
- Finns certainly booze more.
- Finland has most probably more saunas per person.
- There is a difference in ice hockey as well probably but don't know which one is better
.- Swedish is a North Germanic language thus it is easier to learn Swedish when you know German for instance. Estonian and up to some (and probably very little) point Hungarian might help for Finnish though.
- But after all, both countries have very good metal bands and beautiful girls so no major differences, Ooh yeah! Actually I think that Finnish girls are slightly more beautiful.
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur."
Finland or Sweden
Baris, I do agree that Sweden is more known and "respected" worldwide. Sweden has more glamour in people's eyes. I have also met people who know where Sweden is but don't know where Finland is located.The strong point if someone considers between Finland and Sweden is that Swedish is a very easy language to learn. But you can manage very well in English in both countries in short run.
I also think that Swedes are more open to different nationalities. They are used to it because their quotes for refugees have been so high. At societal level, Sweden has taken a stand of more social responsibility and solidarity.I was ashamed of our quotes, when there was this Jugoslavian crisis. It was something at least 50 or more times less than for the Scandinavian countries.I think that the Swedish racism is hidden, as it in Finland is often more open. What you, Cory wrote, however, implied that it can also be open in Sweden.
Finland definitely has more saunas and sauna culture. I visited a public Swedish swimming pool and froze in their sauna. There was no possibility to throw water on the stones, either. In a famous SPA I also froze of the same reason. And I heard about 2 Finnish guys who stayed at a hotel in Stockholm Södermalm. When there was no water for the sauna stove to throw, they went to a cleaning cupboard (siivouskomero) and took a plastic container. Happy of this finding, they started to throw water to the stones in the sauna, and soon the crazy Finns were evicted from the sauna by the hotel personnel. If sauna is central in your life, move to Finland!
There has been a phrase in Finland that all Swedish guys are gays. Where does it come from? I asked my Norwegian friend, and she had never heard this phrase. As to Baris, not only Swedish girls are beautiful, but the Swedish guys are superb! They are tall and many of them look like models. And they can behave well. Personally I think they behave better than Finnish men, usually, but there are exceptions. In the long run, I still would prefer a Finnish guy because the external glamour is not something to build a relationship on.
And decision making...definitely it drove me crazy also, Cory! At professional meetings there was not any structure, and usually no decision was made. Eternal discussion. Sweden are talkative and like to socialize. In work this can be fun and relaxed, but in the longer working hours the Swedes do not seem to get more done than Finns in less hours. Surely is the taxation high, but so are the salary levels higher. I earned more for the same job in Sweden compared to Finland.
I also think that Swedes are more open to different nationalities. They are used to it because their quotes for refugees have been so high. At societal level, Sweden has taken a stand of more social responsibility and solidarity.I was ashamed of our quotes, when there was this Jugoslavian crisis. It was something at least 50 or more times less than for the Scandinavian countries.I think that the Swedish racism is hidden, as it in Finland is often more open. What you, Cory wrote, however, implied that it can also be open in Sweden.
Finland definitely has more saunas and sauna culture. I visited a public Swedish swimming pool and froze in their sauna. There was no possibility to throw water on the stones, either. In a famous SPA I also froze of the same reason. And I heard about 2 Finnish guys who stayed at a hotel in Stockholm Södermalm. When there was no water for the sauna stove to throw, they went to a cleaning cupboard (siivouskomero) and took a plastic container. Happy of this finding, they started to throw water to the stones in the sauna, and soon the crazy Finns were evicted from the sauna by the hotel personnel. If sauna is central in your life, move to Finland!
There has been a phrase in Finland that all Swedish guys are gays. Where does it come from? I asked my Norwegian friend, and she had never heard this phrase. As to Baris, not only Swedish girls are beautiful, but the Swedish guys are superb! They are tall and many of them look like models. And they can behave well. Personally I think they behave better than Finnish men, usually, but there are exceptions. In the long run, I still would prefer a Finnish guy because the external glamour is not something to build a relationship on.
And decision making...definitely it drove me crazy also, Cory! At professional meetings there was not any structure, and usually no decision was made. Eternal discussion. Sweden are talkative and like to socialize. In work this can be fun and relaxed, but in the longer working hours the Swedes do not seem to get more done than Finns in less hours. Surely is the taxation high, but so are the salary levels higher. I earned more for the same job in Sweden compared to Finland.
Decision making is definitely one of the major differences as well. Finns think that Swedes are very slow at decision making but then Swedes think that Finns don't bother to ask other people's opinions when taking decisions. Have you heard the phrase "Management by Perkele"? Google for it if you haven't heard that one yet.
Then there are these problems happening in the TeliaSonera board. People working at TeliaSonera deny that the problems are related to cultural differences but I still strongly doubt that they are not. Very talented Finns were forced to leave the board and we have a couple of cases in hand, not only one. I mean, how come a high-tech company can suffer that much from the cultural differences even in the top management? That makes a sad panda.
Then there are these problems happening in the TeliaSonera board. People working at TeliaSonera deny that the problems are related to cultural differences but I still strongly doubt that they are not. Very talented Finns were forced to leave the board and we have a couple of cases in hand, not only one. I mean, how come a high-tech company can suffer that much from the cultural differences even in the top management? That makes a sad panda.
Last edited by baris on Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur."
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Hank W.
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Well, I work in a Swedish-Finnish-Nordic company so I'd have a chance of moving to Sweden. A lot of things speaks against it, as mentioned here:
- taxation... heh. Not only the income tax, municipal rates run at 25-30% compared to the 16-17 Finland. And if you'd buy a flat the property tax would be a sly killer - and finding a rental in Stockholm... And even the salary is bigger, everything costs - the VAT is at 25%. It gets even worse in Norway and Denmark.
- the Swedish "consensus management". Makes Finns go mad. Finns go to a meeting to get a decision. Swedes go on go on go on... So Finns skip the meetings and then start doing while the Swedes sit in meetings "talking". Results sometime are interesting.
- don't know of the racism part. If you look at say Rikeby and then read of Malmö I wouldn't say Sweden is a "model country" for immigration. Swedish industry needed workforce. Sweden had a very tough "Swedification" policy up until quite recently in schooling immigrant kids.
- societally I think its more that "government knows best" than in Finland. I do not know how long Sweden can keep the welfare state running as it is now. Violent crime rates are higher than in Finland - or maybe its then we don't have anything worth stealing at gunpoint.
- so yes, no, I wouldn't "gain" anything - but professionally it might be necessary in the future. Depends on where the wind blows. I'd rather try out Tallinn if you ask me.
Oh, and the "number 2 beer" the Swedes sell is dishwater
BTW the Norwegians do call Swedes "bösser" (gay) in some parts as well, I guess its due to them having found their feminine side earlier
Well, been quite liberal and as they avoided the war Swedes were richer, better dressed & so forth in the 1950's so I guess a slight envy factor plays the part here.
- taxation... heh. Not only the income tax, municipal rates run at 25-30% compared to the 16-17 Finland. And if you'd buy a flat the property tax would be a sly killer - and finding a rental in Stockholm... And even the salary is bigger, everything costs - the VAT is at 25%. It gets even worse in Norway and Denmark.
- the Swedish "consensus management". Makes Finns go mad. Finns go to a meeting to get a decision. Swedes go on go on go on... So Finns skip the meetings and then start doing while the Swedes sit in meetings "talking". Results sometime are interesting.
- don't know of the racism part. If you look at say Rikeby and then read of Malmö I wouldn't say Sweden is a "model country" for immigration. Swedish industry needed workforce. Sweden had a very tough "Swedification" policy up until quite recently in schooling immigrant kids.
- societally I think its more that "government knows best" than in Finland. I do not know how long Sweden can keep the welfare state running as it is now. Violent crime rates are higher than in Finland - or maybe its then we don't have anything worth stealing at gunpoint.
- so yes, no, I wouldn't "gain" anything - but professionally it might be necessary in the future. Depends on where the wind blows. I'd rather try out Tallinn if you ask me.
Oh, and the "number 2 beer" the Swedes sell is dishwater
BTW the Norwegians do call Swedes "bösser" (gay) in some parts as well, I guess its due to them having found their feminine side earlier
Well, been quite liberal and as they avoided the war Swedes were richer, better dressed & so forth in the 1950's so I guess a slight envy factor plays the part here.Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
Finland and Sweden
Yes, Hank, finding rental in Stockholm is difficult. But if you will live in other cities, or in Stockholm suburbs, you can get a flat pretty cheap because of the system called Bostadsrättlägehet (Asumisoikeusasunto in Finnish) or Hyresrätt. It means that your initial investment does not need to be that high. We in Finland "die of" the heavy apartment prices - and you usually need a loan to buy a flat. On the other hand, you own your flat in Finland, which is not the case in Sweden.
But in Sweden, which is a more socialist society, everyone has easier access to living. But you will not own your flat, only the right to live or right to rent it. As an example, when I lived in Gothenburg, I bought a one bedroom flat (Asumisoikeus) for about 34.000 euros! And then, the rent was 340 euros. In Finland, you would pay about 100.000 -150000(or 200.000 euros in Helsinki area) for the flat. The rent (yhtiövastike) would be around 180 euros I guess.
Personally, I prefer the Swedish system. When I was a young professional, after graduation, all my salary went for the payments for study and apartment loans. Hardly anything left. Would I have lived in Sweden, I could have stayed in Hyresrätt,(Right to rent) and would not have needed to "starve". On the other hand, the negative point in the Swedish system is that the housing association is very much in control of your flat,not yourself.
But in Sweden, which is a more socialist society, everyone has easier access to living. But you will not own your flat, only the right to live or right to rent it. As an example, when I lived in Gothenburg, I bought a one bedroom flat (Asumisoikeus) for about 34.000 euros! And then, the rent was 340 euros. In Finland, you would pay about 100.000 -150000(or 200.000 euros in Helsinki area) for the flat. The rent (yhtiövastike) would be around 180 euros I guess.
Personally, I prefer the Swedish system. When I was a young professional, after graduation, all my salary went for the payments for study and apartment loans. Hardly anything left. Would I have lived in Sweden, I could have stayed in Hyresrätt,(Right to rent) and would not have needed to "starve". On the other hand, the negative point in the Swedish system is that the housing association is very much in control of your flat,not yourself.
Last edited by toukokuu on Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Finland and Sweden
I agree with you, Baris, that the decision making is a big difference. I heard about that particular case in Telia Sonera. It was very much on newspapers, and it was implied that the reason was the cultural differences. I heard from an American living in FInland saying that the Finnish decision making system drives him crazy. You have to ask everyone and it takes such a long time...whereas in the States, the decision making is more centralised to one person. This person had been working in education world. Well, I did not dare to say that would you know about the Swedish.
Baris, in Sweden, at least in Gothenburg, you can find Turkish beer called Ephes, 8%. Is this available in HElsinki?
Baris, in Sweden, at least in Gothenburg, you can find Turkish beer called Ephes, 8%. Is this available in HElsinki?
Re: Finland and Sweden
toukokuu, I guess you mean Efes Extra:toukokuu wrote:Baris, in Sweden, at least in Gothenburg, you can find Turkish beer called Ephes, 8%. Is this available in HElsinki?
I haven't seen it in Alko at least but some Turkish restaurants in Helsinki tend to have Efes beer so some of them might have. One thing drove me crazy was Meze Point, in my opinion the best Turkish restaurant in Helsinki, don't have Raki, the national drink of Turkey.
There is also my friend in this forum with the nickname EphesusExtra. Ephesus is Efes in Greek.
BTW, one more point about the Swedish language: If you know Swedish you can learn Norwegian and Danish (not sure but maybe Icelandic as well?) easily as well. That might be also an advantage though as toukokuu pointed out you can survive with English in each of these countries.
Now that we're comparing Finland to Sweden, how about adding Norway, Denmark and Iceland into the game. Anyone with experiences or thoughts?
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur."
Finland and Sweden
Hi Baris, thanks for the beer information. I am looking forward to dining at the Turkish restaurants in Helsinki.
About Denmark: Copenhagen is a happy city to visit, beautiful and easy for pedestrians. Recently, I heard some comments from a Norwegian who thinks that the Danes are so Danish. It means, for example, that if you have a degree from some other country, the Danes do not necessarily appreciate it. Well, I think we have the same problem in Finland, or how?
About Norwegians, I find some similarities with the Finnish mentality in Norwegian people. Norwegians are very proud of their country, and they have confidence. This is clear, because they did not join the E.U. I think we should not joined,either. It is sad that Finland is the one of the Nordic countries, that tries to be a model pupil in the E.U. This tells that we do not have a clear identity.The Swedes are much more E.U. negative.
Norway was rated as the country with highest quality of life in the whole world! Congratulations! Of personal experience, I have met both very happy and friendly people and very laid-back people in Oslo. This is close to what it is in Finland, I guess.
I have also heard from some health professionals, that the Icelandic are high on some scales of happiness.I mean, in scientific statistics. Do not, however, know more about this. All the Icelandic people I have met, have been very nice and relaxed. Never been there, however.
About understanding each other, it is not so clear as Baris said. Danes have to make a great effort in understading Swedish. It is maybe not such a big issue in everyday communication, but in academic-business -related issues, English is a better option. Do you, Hank, have experience of this in your company?
About Denmark: Copenhagen is a happy city to visit, beautiful and easy for pedestrians. Recently, I heard some comments from a Norwegian who thinks that the Danes are so Danish. It means, for example, that if you have a degree from some other country, the Danes do not necessarily appreciate it. Well, I think we have the same problem in Finland, or how?
About Norwegians, I find some similarities with the Finnish mentality in Norwegian people. Norwegians are very proud of their country, and they have confidence. This is clear, because they did not join the E.U. I think we should not joined,either. It is sad that Finland is the one of the Nordic countries, that tries to be a model pupil in the E.U. This tells that we do not have a clear identity.The Swedes are much more E.U. negative.
Norway was rated as the country with highest quality of life in the whole world! Congratulations! Of personal experience, I have met both very happy and friendly people and very laid-back people in Oslo. This is close to what it is in Finland, I guess.
I have also heard from some health professionals, that the Icelandic are high on some scales of happiness.I mean, in scientific statistics. Do not, however, know more about this. All the Icelandic people I have met, have been very nice and relaxed. Never been there, however.
About understanding each other, it is not so clear as Baris said. Danes have to make a great effort in understading Swedish. It is maybe not such a big issue in everyday communication, but in academic-business -related issues, English is a better option. Do you, Hank, have experience of this in your company?
Last edited by toukokuu on Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Very interesting and informative discussion. =) I agree, Copenhagen is a happy city to visit. I haven't gone to Sweden, Norway or Iceland yet. I like quite a lot the way Finns are and do things.
I had a Finnish flatmate and a Nowegian flatmate... very different experiences. Anyway, I liked the way the Finn behaved by far, the way to do things, the way of thinking, the habits, the discussions we had...everything was always in order in the apartment, and very clean. With both the apartment was quiet and that was very nice. =)
The Finnish language sounds better to my ears that Norwegian. I don't know why.
I had a Finnish flatmate and a Nowegian flatmate... very different experiences. Anyway, I liked the way the Finn behaved by far, the way to do things, the way of thinking, the habits, the discussions we had...everything was always in order in the apartment, and very clean. With both the apartment was quiet and that was very nice. =)
The Finnish language sounds better to my ears that Norwegian. I don't know why.
Last edited by Susan on Sun May 20, 2007 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
came to Finland in January, leaving on Sunday in 3 weeks, start my job in Sweden on 2nd of January, contract for one year so far 
Re: Why move to Finland, not Sweden?
That is me.toukokuu wrote:Hi all! Sometimes I wonder how do people choose between Finland and Sweden - those folks who do not move in because of falling in love with a Finn or Nokia. I am just provoking little discussion: is Finland different from Sweden? If so, do you think there are major or minor differences?
I lived in Norway for a few years as a kid, I wanted to live in the Nordic environment again. My first choice would have been Sweden (as it's biggest and the language looks easier, especially as I was pretty good at German in highschool), Finland next, then Norway (as I had already lived there) finally Denmark. Because of work connections Finland offered the best possibilities. So I came here & life is good
I think all of the Nordic countries would have been fine to live in, the differences to my untrained eye are small ... let's be honest, even Britain is hardly that different from Finland, not as different as for example as Greece, Spain or Italy.
Sinikala,
Britain is very different from all the Nordic countries. Like we, they have a welfare system, in health care and social assistance. University studies are not free and it causes inequalities. But I mean the mentality, not the system, is very very different. It is not a very organised society. The concepts of hygiene are 20-30 years behind most other northern European countries. Even people who consider themselves coming from developing countries, like India and Brazil, find it difficult to get things done properly in London. It is a long story. There are many positive things in Britain, but as a whole, there is a very different in mentality from us.
Britain is very different from all the Nordic countries. Like we, they have a welfare system, in health care and social assistance. University studies are not free and it causes inequalities. But I mean the mentality, not the system, is very very different. It is not a very organised society. The concepts of hygiene are 20-30 years behind most other northern European countries. Even people who consider themselves coming from developing countries, like India and Brazil, find it difficult to get things done properly in London. It is a long story. There are many positive things in Britain, but as a whole, there is a very different in mentality from us.