Hey Kateromater!

[kasimir1]

I agree with you katertomater -You're not here to be bullied. I wish you good luck and I understand you. I think you have just discovered a significant mentality here in Finland. But not everyone is like this. There are good and stupid everywhere.

It also seems the rules don't apply to those who dominate the forum.

You know who you are. Please carry on with your dull forest culture debates.
yawn.

[E Maya]

katertomater

Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Location: Joensuu
Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: s**t, f**k, and the n-word...welcome to finland?

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Yes, I was attacked on based on the fact that I am American

"It is *your* cultural imperialist product. One minute people complain you can't American this nor American that - then people complain they are playing American music. Stop complaining - its exactly what you were asking for..."

Regardless,

The purpose of my posting was to bring this issue to the attention of other concerned people with children living in Finland. And I don't feel this is a valid reason for attacking me either.

Last edited by katertomater on Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

There are people that complain over the fact that things in Finland don't work like for example in America, and sometimes it goes over the top. However, I'd say in this case it wasn't so much about the American getting what he or she was asking for (i.e. American culture), as about the fact that Finns didn't react to the products of said American culture in the same way Americans do.

What I mean is that people didn't and don't get that upset over such music and lyrics in a store. Also, I've never seen any parental guidance stickers on CDs here. I think it's one of those beloved cultural differences. We don't have *bleeb* over swearing on tv either. I'd say it's just not a priority.

I understand that katertomater finds the music offensive, I do too some of the time, but It hasn't really even crossed my mind to go and ask for the music to be turned off.

I didn't think that there was such an attack going on. Though some people like to run with it when given half the chance.


Finnish conversation is not as feel good oriented as the English one is. Maybe it would be prudent to grow a slightly thicker skin.

"Finns prefer to maintain a considerable degree of informality in dress, relationships between people and methods of communication. In some cultures this may reflect a "lack of respect" and in others it reflects a healthy lack of concern for social ritual." (helsinkitimes.net)

[katertomater]

First of all, I posted my experience to the forum, "FAMILIES IN FINLAND"

WHY?

Because I'm interested in the thoughts and feelings of parents in my situation, i.e. struggling with bringing up Finnish/American children in this culture. The concrete issue is, how do parents, both non-Finn and Finn feel about music featuring words which are widely undestood as obscene being played in an commercial place catering to kids? In the US, I have never been faced with this kind of situation. So this is a new problem for me, one that others might also relate to.

Secondly, isn't that the point of the forum? Experiencing life in Finland and having a forum to discuss our problems with others how maybe in similar situations or have more experience with such situations? Is it ok to reply to people who post that this is exactly what your culture wants so you have no right to "complain"? Or, tell them that their home country is the "home of attacking people based on their nationality"?

Statements like these are not in the spirit of the forum. I am one person, yes a person, not a robot without feelings, in an uncomfortable family-oriented, situation. I am not here to represent my country, and I’m not ok with forum users directing their blanket anti-American sentiments to me in a reply. I hope you can see that comments focused on someone's nationality or cultural background are simply not appropriate for the forum.

But back to the core issue, I suppose that the posting got the response it did because it was a bit shocking, hopefully, it conveyed the shock I myself felt. However, the larger question goes far beyond the store, is this shop clerk right to say, "Welcome to Finland," is this something we should all just get used to, and like you suggested, just "grow thinker skins"? Or do we dare to speak up and say to establishments, who have choosen to play this kind of music, this is not ok?

[Hank W.]

By jove- it is quite allright for you to object. However, as it was stated, you might want to object to the appropriate person, as in the Swedish bigwig C.E.O. as apparently his values and your experience have a very big clash.

About that thick skin - if you imagine you are "being attacked because you are an American" the answer is no, you are just being silly. I just pointed out a few facts out there - maybe in a style you cannot comprehend - that the stores play *popular music*. Whatever happens to be *popular music* is not anything you or I as an individual can have much effect on. And as it is not Finnish music, I find it highly ironic that someone from the USA is complaining about it. If your kids start dressing up like ghetto gangbangers when they go to school - who are you going to blame, the school for allowing it or MTV for idolizing it, and the fashion stores making the quick buck? The school is the last one responsible, as while the gangsta-looks being a "problem" is in the USA, in Finland it is "highly fashionable" to wear such clothes. (Not all fashion is bad though -like in the 80's when I went to school kids couldn't be made to wear a wool cap, nowadays you can't get the kids to take them off inside...) I blame the source of the problem, not where it ends. And you should have complained when you were in the USA "Don't export this music to Finland, I don't want my kids hearing it there" - and we all would have been very happy.


Now thick skin in the store - as you've noticed you're not in Kansas any more - the Finnish store clerks will be rude back if some rude person comes to complain to them. They don't make the decisions - they just work there. Maybe she didn't like the music either. I *hate* the music style, but it isn't her fault it was playing there. The Finnish store clerks aren't robots you can go complain at of something that is beyond their abilities to change. Its the same thing if you went and complained to her it was raining outside. And you're not 'complaining to the establishment' - you're yelling at a person, they take it personally here. The answer was - just like my post - probably in a style you couldn't comprehend.

Its called sarcasm, and the Finnish people excel in it. Thats why you need the "thick skin" for. Otherwise you'll end up totally frustrated, as things here won't change even if you thorow a tantrum. Finland, not Kansas, look Toto, theres theres the tin man drinking liquid courage with the scarecrow... "Welcome to Finland"

And come on, you make your first post with f* s* and the n-word and I'm supposed to give you a group hug? Gimme some slack, yo.

[Desundial]

I am not here to represent my country, and I’m not ok with forum users directing their blanket anti-American sentiments to me in a reply. I hope you can see that comments focused on someone's nationality or cultural background are simply not appropriate for the forum.

I agree. I think you've experienced something that was bound to happen and is actually good to develop a filter against. Despite the fact that you are an individual to some people you will always be individual + country. And so if you complain or critique it will sometimes be taken as outsider complaining, which extends to foreigners / (insert a nationality) always complain about xyz, etc. So then unconciously people find it fair to also attack your country. If you had been from Turku or Savo and complained, someone probably would have said, "oh those savolainens /people from Turku... you know what they do..."

This isn't confied to the forum, but anywhere. That's reality of living away from home. I think we all kind of do this in some ways, at some times. As in, "well that clerk was rude to me becomes, why are so finns so rude?" Maybe they are, maybe it was just the clerk!

Since you're from the US, well, the US is just not very popular right now, so you'll find probably more jumping to conclusions and slurs about the US, but what can you do? Better to learn (and have your kids learn) to let it roll off your back.

I'm not saying that to excuse the tone of attack that can come out in discussions on the forum, more to say that thick skin is needed. There may be bad intentions and then again, there may not, behind the comments. It's better to decide not to be too intimidated to air your views, be persistent and be yourself, and share your thoughts! There are bound to be people who agree and those that disagree.

[sinikettu]

I just wonder if any Finns would have taken offence if the words of the offensive to some "Rap Chant" were in Finnish..Not English
e.g. A few Vi#@ut and other words unsuitable for pikku Anti and pieni Anja's ears ...Finns dont seem to mind the use of the American/English equivalents.
The media certainly got all heated and offended when a young lady member of the Eduskuntatalo wore a lapel badge with this V word on it.

[Hank W.]

My father said to me every time I packed my bags: "Remember to behave yourself and keep yourself a man, an remember you are a representative of your country."

[Hank W.]

I just wonder if any Finns would have taken offence if the words of the offensive to some "Rap Chant" were in Finnish..Not English
e.g. A few Vi#@ut and other words unsuitable for pikku Anti and pieni Anja's ears ...Finns dont seem to mind the use of the American/English equivalents.
The media certainly got all heated and offended when a young lady member of the Eduskuntatalo wore a lapel badge with this V word on it.

Oh, most probably they would have, but then again I have heard Steen's christmas carol play full blast in Myyrmanni mall at the music stores, and that guy definitely uses all the v-words...

[Rosamunda]

BTW... Not just H&M...

bb/viewtopic.php?t=6117

[katertomater]

And come on, you make your first post with f* s* and the n-word and I'm supposed to give you a group hug?

So, you found those words offensive, did you?
Now we are finally on the same page.

And for the LAST time, I don't have a problem with the music, make it, buy it, sell it, whatever. What bothers me is the fact that it is played in settings intended for families and children.

[Hank W.]

And so if you complain or critique it will sometimes be taken as outsider complaining

Well, its the logic of "don't come to my house to tell me to clean the trash off the porch before you mow your own lawn."

Finns happen to have fierce national pride, and while we do think the country is the pits, we still have the resentment spanning over a thousand years of these foreign peoples to come rule over us and tell we are no good, forest peoples etc. So its extra fine line to cross, after which you will hear of all the things that are wrong with *your* country - and you are coming to teach *us* to be "better". A Finn will sometimes do a double opposite just to make a point he won't be "told" to do something. While at the same time Finns are "Nordic Japan" in also that we adapt things from other cultures at a mindboggling rate. Be it food or hotrods... now of course once it gets "nationalized" it may be slightly removed from the original, but serves its purpose.

And what comes to anti-americanism, did you guys read that Washington Post Blog? Finns complain constantly that Finland is coming 'little America'.
Politics aside - about people. So you find an American. Now I think many people are like small children. You see a big fat balloon and you have a needle. Give a little prick and the American flips like a 3-year old throwing a tantrum in a candy store. Yes, it is fun Now to get this "thick skin" one needs to stop proving that when someone says "Americans are stupid and fat" one doesn't act like a B-52 spraying pregnant chaff over Baghdad. No fireworks. The retort must be something on the same wit(less) level as then the person will know that they can't have the 4th of July display they expect. You need to "know the rules" with this one, and not have the pavlovian reaction.

Of course, all Finns are knife-wielding drunks queuing 9am into the pub...

[Hank W.]

So, you found those words offensive, did you?

Well, they're not ladylike are they, so I didn't treat you like a porcelain doll "Welcome to Finland". First skin-thickening treatment for free.

I don't have a problem with the music, make it, buy it, sell it, whatever.

I *have* a problem with the music. I think they should ban it.

What bothers me is the fact that it is played in settings intended for families and children.

Complain "upstairs" or write to the local paper "letters to the editor". Actually a local paper would be good, if they raise a bit of a stink. We can do you up with a translation here easy. You're not the only one observed this.

[Nadriandel]

I just wonder if any Finns would have taken offence if the words of the offensive to some "Rap Chant" were in Finnish..Not English

And while we're at it, why not ask if any Americans would be offended, if an American store played Finnish rap with Finnish curses?

[jussi.petteri]

i beg your pardon, but hank, you are mistaken. the post by Kater is not having to do with finns or Finland but a stupid move by a company, not a country or peoples.
/jussi

[Hank W.]

I beg the pardon of reding comprehension. There was two issues - the offensive music itself (on which issue I totally agree on, they should think a bit what they pipe in), and the second issue is the complaint to a sales clerk (which I think should be directed to an appropriate direction), and the clerk's response "Welcome to Finland" (which I go over). The latter is the "issue of thick skin", as Finland is all about "rude", even the nature is rude here...

(yeah, thats my car April 1st 2005 or was it 2004)