I came across this site while looking for practical advice on moving to Finland. the heading on the site says 'find information about moving to, living in and life in Finland'. I asked for information and advice on job oppertunities and finances.
Some people gave some good advice and made some suggestion os other places to find info and I thank you for that. However there were others who thoght it was within their rights to challenge and criticise my parenting, my lifestyle, my motivation for moving to Finland. All of these things are my business, I would accept these challenges from my friends and family who know me but all you know of me is from 50 writen on a forum, that is not enough to make a judgement.
This brings me back to my question, what is this forum for ? Is it to offerinformation and advice? or is it to judgewho is worthy of being accepted in Finland?
What is this forum for??
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Hank W.
- The Motorhead
- Posts: 29973
- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 10:00 pm
- Location: Mushroom Mountain
- Contact:
Its to offer information and advice.
Tell me, is it more kind to tell you beforehand you need to know how to swim, or do you want to find it out after you plunge into that hole in the ice?
You're not the first person with illusions of a Nordic paradise. However the people here - some who immigrated 30 odd years ago - *know* what it is like here. You should appreciate their experience. However - if you don't like the advice you get, as in not hearing what you want to hear - it is not those person's fault your illusions of reality do not match their factual experiences, so no need for the stroppy attitude. If your plan sucks, it is a favor these people do to tell you it sucks. Its better to face the facts and do the math before you have to swim in that hole in the ice.
Also about being worthy - theres people who move to Finland, and then spend months on end on this board bitching, moaning and whining and complaining innecesantly about the difficulties of life, as their illusion of a Nordic paradise is shattered and they can not cope with the culture shock. They lack the sisu and leave back home sooner or later after making us natives all feel like we are some sort of forest trolls. I do not want people who do not have a solid factual basis for their move to come here and feel unhappy. This country makes me unhappy, but I want people to be unhappy for the 'right reasons' and not due to their own stupidity.
And I am telling you - for your study plans - you need *cash money*, enough savings to survive for atleast six months - preferrably a year without *any* income coming in. Don't count on your husband finding a job, nor you getting any handouts from the government. No handouts, No job, zippo zilch nada. Prepare for the *worst* case scenario.
Of course the probability is there as well as the possibilities, but if you come over without any kind of safety cushion to fall back on, you'll be with your husband and child in that cold water and learning to swim *then* is a bit too late.
Tell me, is it more kind to tell you beforehand you need to know how to swim, or do you want to find it out after you plunge into that hole in the ice?
You're not the first person with illusions of a Nordic paradise. However the people here - some who immigrated 30 odd years ago - *know* what it is like here. You should appreciate their experience. However - if you don't like the advice you get, as in not hearing what you want to hear - it is not those person's fault your illusions of reality do not match their factual experiences, so no need for the stroppy attitude. If your plan sucks, it is a favor these people do to tell you it sucks. Its better to face the facts and do the math before you have to swim in that hole in the ice.
Also about being worthy - theres people who move to Finland, and then spend months on end on this board bitching, moaning and whining and complaining innecesantly about the difficulties of life, as their illusion of a Nordic paradise is shattered and they can not cope with the culture shock. They lack the sisu and leave back home sooner or later after making us natives all feel like we are some sort of forest trolls. I do not want people who do not have a solid factual basis for their move to come here and feel unhappy. This country makes me unhappy, but I want people to be unhappy for the 'right reasons' and not due to their own stupidity.
And I am telling you - for your study plans - you need *cash money*, enough savings to survive for atleast six months - preferrably a year without *any* income coming in. Don't count on your husband finding a job, nor you getting any handouts from the government. No handouts, No job, zippo zilch nada. Prepare for the *worst* case scenario.
Of course the probability is there as well as the possibilities, but if you come over without any kind of safety cushion to fall back on, you'll be with your husband and child in that cold water and learning to swim *then* is a bit too late.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
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Tappaja
Re: What is this forum for??
With this threshold for taking offence, you must be USAmerican.jen wrote:I came across this site while looking for practical advice on moving to Finland. the heading on the site says 'find information about moving to, living in and life in Finland'. I asked for information and advice on job oppertunities and finances.
Some people gave some good advice and made some suggestion os other places to find info and I thank you for that. However there were others who thoght it was within their rights to challenge and criticise my parenting, my lifestyle, my motivation for moving to Finland. All of these things are my business, I would accept these challenges from my friends and family who know me but all you know of me is from 50 writen on a forum, that is not enough to make a judgement.
This brings me back to my question, what is this forum for ? Is it to offerinformation and advice? or is it to judgewho is worthy of being accepted in Finland?
FWIW the observations made elsewhere about the effects of immigrating to Finland on the welfare of accompanying children are relevant and serious. You could have asked for advice on strategies for managing the cultural and other difficulties that tend to emerge in such circumstances. Instead, you seem to think that taking offence will solve your problem. Great. I care enough to call your attention to this.
Unless you are very wealthy, your lifestyle is highly likely to change on immigrating to Finland. Many of the contributors to this forum can offer constructive suggestions for managing this change, but not if you take offence so easily. I care enough to call your attention to this, but not to debate the matter. Deal with it.
Your formal and informal motivation for immigrating to Finland will affect the way that the administrative system treats you and the way in which you come to terms with what is happening to you. But don't take my word for it, try it for yourself! When the Finnish administration asks you why you want to immigrate to Finland just give the answer "that's none of your business". You have nothing to lose but your application fee. I care just about enough to call your attention to this.
If you are offended by this response, then I am delighted.
Go ahead. Make my day.
daryl
Wo ai Zhong-guo ren
Hank, you were one of the ones that i was thanking for the legitamate advice. My comments were aimed at others for saying things like 'presumumably your childs education comes before your own', 'IMHO children shouldent have to cope' and other such comments implying that i have no concern for my childs welbeing.
I dont have romantic notions of a nordic paradise, i am prepared for a struggle, we did the samewhen we moved to Scotland.I was pregnant, my husband was only my bf at the time and was here on a tourist visa and couldnt work we had no home and no money. we know the difficulies of moving to another country are beter prepared this time.
We have mved into a smaller appartment with lower rent so that we can save money. I have gone back to work part time so that we have exta income which can be saved. Gabor has his qualifications recognised here and has plenty of work experience behing him too, he has also strted the procces of getting his qualification recognised in Finland. Friends of ours have offered usa place to stay for the first few months we are there. We are both starting to study Finnish but we also both know that we reallywont learn much until we are there.
It is not that i am looking for hand out and that we are not prepared to work hard and struggle, it is just that the social system here doesnt advertise what you are entitled to and many people struggle unneccisarily. we have been thinking about this for a number of years and havent made the decision lightly. we have a number of finnish friends, and they are one reason that we want to move there. just because i thing it would be good for my daughter to go grow up there oes not mean that i imagine a nordic paradise.
I dont have romantic notions of a nordic paradise, i am prepared for a struggle, we did the samewhen we moved to Scotland.I was pregnant, my husband was only my bf at the time and was here on a tourist visa and couldnt work we had no home and no money. we know the difficulies of moving to another country are beter prepared this time.
We have mved into a smaller appartment with lower rent so that we can save money. I have gone back to work part time so that we have exta income which can be saved. Gabor has his qualifications recognised here and has plenty of work experience behing him too, he has also strted the procces of getting his qualification recognised in Finland. Friends of ours have offered usa place to stay for the first few months we are there. We are both starting to study Finnish but we also both know that we reallywont learn much until we are there.
It is not that i am looking for hand out and that we are not prepared to work hard and struggle, it is just that the social system here doesnt advertise what you are entitled to and many people struggle unneccisarily. we have been thinking about this for a number of years and havent made the decision lightly. we have a number of finnish friends, and they are one reason that we want to move there. just because i thing it would be good for my daughter to go grow up there oes not mean that i imagine a nordic paradise.
Re: What is this forum for??
Unless you speak Finnish or have "niche" IT skills then the chances of finding a job are very small indeed. For NATIVE ENGLISH speakers then there is the possibility of teaching English as a foreign language through private language schools. The pay is about 17 euro an hour but you will not be guaranteed regular work (most language trainers work on a freelance parttime basis). It is almost impossible to get language training work if you are not a native English speaker.jen wrote: I asked for information and advice on job oppertunities and finances.
If your husband wants to work in primary school education then AFAIK the only option is Oulu international school. Call them. They will tell you whether his profile fits and the possible availability of posts. Look on http://www.oulu.fi for a list of English speaking kindergartens and call them to ask about qualifications necessary for working in pre-school.
You will find it almost impossible to rent an apartment if you have no fixed income. So you need to find a job before you come here, or arrange with friends for accomodation.
Not everyone who applies to university gets accepted (usually there is an entrance exam). Education degrees are OVER-SUBSCRIBED in Finland and places for foreigners are limited.
As Hank and daryl say, you can't dismiss everyone who says things you don't want to hear. We could say.... yeah, come on over..... the education is free, food and rents are really cheap, you can always find work..... but we don't say that. Not because we don't want you here.... but because that's the way it is.
Anyway.... what's wrong with Hungary? I loved the place, great place to bring up kids, great climate, fantastic culture, and your skills would easily get you a job there.
I would love to live in Hungary, however it is not only my decision, Gábor made the choise to move away from hungary a long time ago and does not want to move back. I have suggested a compromise to him that we spend an exchange year of my course, before our daughter starts school, in Seged. Because i agree with you it is a fantastic country with great culture and climate. there is also the added bonus of supporting my learning of Hungarian and our daughters.
For sure, it´s not easy to move to a country where you don´t know the language, unless you have great IT skills or you can teach your own language somewhere.
However, I can say that I am in Tampere for 3 weeks now, and I already got 2 job interviews. But, hold on: I can´t speak Finnish almost at all and I got this job interviews because I applied to all the possible cleaning jobs and in fact, I got 2 job interviews for cleaning, where I don´t need to speak Finnish.
I have a university degree from Italy, in translation and interpretation in English and French and I seldomly work as a freelance translator, but it´s not enough to make me live and I don´t want to live on my boyfriend too much. So I applied for cleaning jobs, which aren´t for sure my dream jobs. And tomorrow, I will go to sign a part-time cleaning job contract. So, if you are lucky and willing to do whatever, you can find a job.
But you must be lucky, as I was.
Good luck Jen!
However, I can say that I am in Tampere for 3 weeks now, and I already got 2 job interviews. But, hold on: I can´t speak Finnish almost at all and I got this job interviews because I applied to all the possible cleaning jobs and in fact, I got 2 job interviews for cleaning, where I don´t need to speak Finnish.
I have a university degree from Italy, in translation and interpretation in English and French and I seldomly work as a freelance translator, but it´s not enough to make me live and I don´t want to live on my boyfriend too much. So I applied for cleaning jobs, which aren´t for sure my dream jobs. And tomorrow, I will go to sign a part-time cleaning job contract. So, if you are lucky and willing to do whatever, you can find a job.
But you must be lucky, as I was.
Good luck Jen!
Follow your love
I think some of you have taken my point the wrong way. I can accept people telling about the unemployment rates and the challenges we are likely to face when we move, these are all good points and are very important for me to know. My problem is when people tell me i must think of my child. Ofcourse i thinkof my child i am a mother, my child is my top priority. that has nothing to do with advice on moving.
In my (fairly considerable) experience of advising immigrants it is only USAmericans that personalise issues and take offence as a debating strategy, even when requesting help. I have no idea why this is so, but the perception is unmistakeable.jen wrote:Daryl i am only offended at the suggestion that i am american
If I had ten cents for every time someone from one culture has taken offence at the sincere advice of someone from another culture, then I could easily finance my own behavioural research institute to study the phenomenon.
Trust me - if your respondents on this forum had genuinely intended to give offence, then everyone would know it and Neil would probably have shut down the thread by now.
daryl
Wo ai Zhong-guo ren
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Hank W.
- The Motorhead
- Posts: 29973
- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 10:00 pm
- Location: Mushroom Mountain
- Contact:
Oh come on, its the "be nice to Americans group-hug week".
Yeah, what is wrong with Hungary? I'd almost be willing to move there, if they spoke some other language than any with a relationship to Finnish, that would be humanely possible to learn
And Jen, I don't think people are questioning your parenting skills per se, it is hard to try to figure out what the person's "baseline" is just from a few random posts. Usually you want to know what the person knows - or have they thought things over. Of course *you* yourself know what you are thinking, you know you are a responsible parent, but how do you imagine other people can deduct that from your posts? By reading your mind?
For example I get extremely irritated when people imagine I can see inside their head and know their background - you're not posting a CV so the only thing we can assess the situation of is the little information that trickles in.
Now from your past 2-3 posts here and there I can assess that as you've already been through Denmark (and then people claim Finnish immigration is kafkaesque); you've done the ropes moving to Scotland, and you have a network of people you know in Finland - now your betting odds for survival are being rewritten. And what comes to your plan, the devil's advocates here are just trying to find the details.
Anyhow theres been several good points raised in this discussion - I'd suggest the marching order
- backup safety net (+plan B for bellyflop situations)
- hubby gets a job *before* moving out & moving in
- you get your feelers out for a job as well
- organize kindergarten etc.
- start sleeping with the books under your head to get into the university
There is a saying in Finland about "climbing arse-first into a tree" so I hope you recognize from this which way is up.
Yeah, what is wrong with Hungary? I'd almost be willing to move there, if they spoke some other language than any with a relationship to Finnish, that would be humanely possible to learn
And Jen, I don't think people are questioning your parenting skills per se, it is hard to try to figure out what the person's "baseline" is just from a few random posts. Usually you want to know what the person knows - or have they thought things over. Of course *you* yourself know what you are thinking, you know you are a responsible parent, but how do you imagine other people can deduct that from your posts? By reading your mind?
For example I get extremely irritated when people imagine I can see inside their head and know their background - you're not posting a CV so the only thing we can assess the situation of is the little information that trickles in.
Now from your past 2-3 posts here and there I can assess that as you've already been through Denmark (and then people claim Finnish immigration is kafkaesque); you've done the ropes moving to Scotland, and you have a network of people you know in Finland - now your betting odds for survival are being rewritten. And what comes to your plan, the devil's advocates here are just trying to find the details.
Anyhow theres been several good points raised in this discussion - I'd suggest the marching order
- backup safety net (+plan B for bellyflop situations)
- hubby gets a job *before* moving out & moving in
- you get your feelers out for a job as well
- organize kindergarten etc.
- start sleeping with the books under your head to get into the university
There is a saying in Finland about "climbing arse-first into a tree" so I hope you recognize from this which way is up.
Last edited by Hank W. on Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
If your comments were aimed at those I made then aim better.jen wrote:Hank, you were one of the ones that i was thanking for the legitamate advice. My comments were aimed at others for saying things like 'presumumably your childs education comes before your own', 'IMHO children shouldent have to cope' and other such comments implying that i have no concern for my childs welbeing.
or better still respond in your original thread, you don't need to start a separate thread just because some answers displease you.IIRC your inital posting was worded that there is a nice course that you want to take in Oulu, your hubby & kid are coming with you.
I would, and did in your first thread strongly advise against dragging a young child from pillar to post. Nobody (at least I did not) implied that you have no concern for your child's well being, but unless you have gone through a discontinuous / fractured education yourself ... (well have you? or was yours a standard undisturbed education?) then you may not be aware of the sort of problems that a child may experience.
If that offends you, no big deal, at least it's got you thinking about it.
Last edited by sinikala on Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Xochiquetzal
- Posts: 1400
- Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 2:44 pm
- Location: The 'poo!
Great. Whine about people making broad assertions about you personally and then insult the Americans here. Would it have been better if Daryl had called you a mangy mongrel dog instead of an American?jen wrote:Daryl i am only offended at the suggestion that i am american
Look, I don't mind people making fun of my culture here. Heck I do it all the time myself and at least FF regulars like Hank W intersperse an 'Americans are...' repartee with wit and logic (and often humor and pathos). But I do find it sad that I'm wasting 5 minutes of my unrecoverable AMERICAN time to post in this stupid thread where you waste all of our time with self righteous indignation - and then eschew hypocritic rhetoric just as insulting to others.
My advice: don't move any where else until you evaluate a little more honestly your reasons for moving and your true attitude to other cultures.
Stupid.