how do you raise a family on 40K euros? or can you?

[Finnmom]

we are trying to move our family over there, some of you have i have already talked with about this.

people i have talked to tell me that an it manager can expect to make about 40K a year...50K ma be , although that is probably pushing it. with taxes, that would probably leave us about 2000 euros a month if taxes are 40% as i am hearing. that is scary. how do you raise a family with that amount?

here we really don't end up paying any taxes at all, with child deductions and other deductions so we are looking at less than half of what we make here, if the pay is really 40K a year.

i know it is a taboo to talk about actual figures, i am just wondering if this can be done....

i know there is lapsilisä, that will bring it up a little, the kids will get free lunches at school, free dental and health care also... just don't know how to add it all up to see if we will survive.

[kay30]

Well, that's why among 30 to 55-year-old women, more than 80% earn a living outside the home here. I don't know any women here (besides those on maternity leave, or those who are involuntarily unemployed) that do not work. In the US, it is very, very different and I knew quite a few people who were fulltime moms and had plenty of income to go around.

You need to weigh your desire to live specifically in Finland vs. your desire to have a certain lifestyle. If you really can't stand the thought of greatly reducing your income/lifestyle, then it might not be for you. If you are OK with it, then you might really like it.

Of course, this is all assuming your husband is even able to find a similar position.

Obviously, families can and do raise children here on a lot less than people in the US are used to. Of course it can be done. But it means probably a smaller apartment rather than a house, one car if you are lucky, both of you working, far more careful budgeting, and far less "things". It totally depends on your priorities.

[Meri-Tuuli]

But here there are a whole wealth of good things about Finland.

Like a really good pre18 education, for starters.
Free higher (post 18)education (have you seen how much it is in the US???)
Safety in general -- how many 7 or 8 year olds go to school on their own in the US?
hmm, more holidays for the worker of the house, shorter working weeks/days. I was shocked to learn that there is no such thing as a legal minimum of paid holiday in the US. Or even sick pay for that matter. I mean I know its up to the companies involved, but theres no legal minimum if you see what I mean.

Things like that.

[Finnmom]

most women my age with children at home work here also. we are really the exception here as well, as i expect to be over there also. we budget aggressively, and then go without a lot of things. right now, for instance, we have been without family room furniture/tv for about 6 months, because we won't borrow for those kind of things, and there just hasn't been extra, with car repairs, dental bills, etc etc. using up whatever would be "extra".

my point bringing this up is that we dont' really expect or are used to any kind of luxurious life style here or there-- which is why i worry about getting by with about half of what me make over there. i am not sure there is much we can do to reduce our lifestyle, as we are very frugal as it is and do not spend much on "extras", entertainment, stuff, cars etc. we drive our cars until they fall apart, and do not have car payments, we don't charge on our credit cards or borrow for consumer stuff or anything else...ok i think you get the picture.

we do have a big house on acreage, which we built more than 10 years ago, bought our land dirt cheap at the time which is why we were able to afford it, that is our only "extra" i guess you could say.

i would not mind being a one car family. i hate driving. here, though, i can't get anywhere without driving so it is a necessity.

i would love it if the kids could walk to school and sports or whatever activities, or ride their bikes. i love to ride my bike. i can't do it here, because it would put my life in jeopardy. also, we live aobut 10km from the store.

as it is, we really don't have a lot of extra income to go around.

most of it goes to housing; then cars, insurances, etc etc.

we are also starting to help pay for the oldest dd's college housing, we can't afford to pay for the tuition, but will pay for housing/food.

i don't know if you really can compare or even figure this out. if we did have extra, then i could see how we could reduce and get by with less.

one of our reasons for wanting to move there was what you said Meri-Tuuli, about balancing life and work and having time off. My husband is a pretty much compulsive worker...he does not know how to take time off. he puts in 12 or more hours a day on a regular basis, and rarely takes time off. he also takes his responsibility as a provider very seriously.

i feel that he might be able to learn to balance life and work better over there, as the culture seems to be more supportive of that...whether that would really happen, i don't know.

[Meri-Tuuli]

Hello!

Well it would be hard for you to bring your family just like that over here. I mean, how old are your kids? I guess they couldn't be just uprooted if they were teenagers.... if they were small, it'd be okay, but teenagers....my finnish mother uprooted my two older brothers when they were 14 and 16 and it was hard for them to adjust to life in an English school, I mean they got there eventually, and they're both doing well now, but, well, it didn't do them any favours really, if you see what I mean.

I'm sure you'd manage just fine with 2000e/month to be honest. And you'd have a far better work/life balance, for your husband anyway. I mean, you can cycle everywhere here in Turku, and the buses are excellent. You wouldn't need to have a car.

Plus all that dental and healthcare stuff would be free too, and things like that.

But anyway its a big decision!

Kind regards

Meri-Tuuli

[RA]

Finnmom, where are you moving to? I'm just thinking traffic and getting around. If you're in the capital area then public means of transport are great. But if you're in a position where you have to commute to work, then having a car sort of becomes a necessity. Even though transport here works on the clock, sometimes the schedules just don't coincide with work. But having said that you can get by without a car.

I think a lot of how much one spends is really a life-style question. What do you like to do and what can't you do without and what you need to have in your life to make it comfortable and you happy? There are lots of families here that live on a lot less than 2000 € a month. And there are others that live on more than that.

Just a suggestion, you could try and act out a 'living in Finland' week where you mock living here, and see how much money you spend, maybe that might help you sort of get an idea.

Safety in general -- how many 7 or 8 year olds go to school on their own in the US?

A bit OT but I can't help myself. I know you mean it's safe here and that's a good thing. But I still don't see anything good about a 7 or 8 year old going to school on their own. I think it's horrible that lots of kids have to sort of grow up so much earlier than they actually have to do, go to school on their own and back home etc. No adult supervision and so on and so on.

[sinikala]

people i have talked to tell me that an it manager can expect to make about 40K a year...50K ma be , although that is probably pushing it. with taxes, that would probably leave us about 2000 euros a month if taxes are 40% as i am hearing. that is scary. how do you raise a family with that amount?

IIRC there are tax breaks for those with kids.

If you are on €40k p.a. you will not pay 40% tax.

Hello!

Well it would be hard for you to bring your family just like that over here. I mean, how old are your kids? I guess they couldn't be just uprooted if they were teenagers.... if they were small, it'd be okay, but teenagers....my finnish mother uprooted my two older brothers when they were 14 and 16 and it was hard for them to adjust to life in an English school, I mean they got there eventually, and they're both doing well now, but, well, it didn't do them any favours really, if you see what I mean.

I'm sure you'd manage just fine with 2000e/month to be honest. And you'd have a far better work/life balance, for your husband anyway. I mean, you can cycle everywhere here in Turku, and the buses are excellent. You wouldn't need to have a car.

Plus all that dental and healthcare stuff would be free too, and things like that.

But anyway its a big decision!

Kind regards

Meri-Tuuli

With respect, as far as I know you have no experience of most of those things - IIRC you are not married, you don't have kids in Finland. And you are a student - so what do you know about work / life balance? It's 00:24 and I am taking a break from writing a presentation for customers visiting tomorrow afternoon.

Work - life balance my arse. But then I'm well paid for what I do.

Students have a pretty good service through YTHS, not everybody has access to such services. If you want decent service it's like anywhere else. You pay.

I also agree with RA - latchkey kids due to absence of both parents - when they are both out working - as I say, latchkey kids are nothing to shout proudly about - ROSPA certainly doesn't recommend children going unsupervised at age 7 or 8.

[Meri-Tuuli]

With respect, as far as I know you have no experience of most of those things - IIRC you are not married, you don't have kids in Finland.

Hey, how do you know I'm a) not married and b) don't have kids?

And you are a student - so what do you know about work / life balance? It's 00:24 and I am taking a break from writing a presentation for customers visiting tomorrow afternoon.

Well students don't have it that easy, certainly in the last couple of years of my degree in Scotland they worked us to the bone! And anyway, I have actually worked for a couple of years in academic journals publishing and as a trainee teacher, so I do have some idea....I'd rather be working on a presentation than marking books....

Students have a pretty good service through YTHS, not everybody has access to such services. If you want decent service it's like anywhere else. You pay.

I know, its a great service! You don't have to pay that much over here for healthcare, you can always claim a % of it back from KELA. And it is cheaper than the UK. Speaking of which, things here are much better than the NHS. But then again, I'm very peeved off with them due to mismangement and misinformation over some treatment I had several years ago, which colours my opinion somewhat. I know more about this particular condition than my useless GP did! Here, needless to say, they are super great about all things re: health thing I'm not disclosing to you....

But anyway.

[Meri-Tuuli]

No but my point was, my mother was/is extremely bitter about uprooting her two Finnish teenage kids to go live in the UK. So I was just sharing that with the lady who asked about moving countries with kids...I mean, I've been a teenager and I wouldn't have liked to have had to move countries at that time in my life...

[Finnmom]

Meri-Tuuli-- why is your mom bitter? i could see that the kids might be bitter, but why is mom bitter? i thought you said the kids had turned out fine.
is she bitter because she would have rather had them raised in Finland, or because they had adjustment problems?

the way i personally see this is that nothing in life is guaranteed except change, and the better you handle change, new situations, new people, the better equipped you are for life.

my kids have gone to several different schools, and adjust and make friends quickly, so i am not worried about them, even though i realize it is an adjustment.

[teme]

One may have a 40% tax rate at 40k, but that is the marginal rate or what hubby pays on overtime pay and other extra income, actual tax rate is something under 30% after deductions. And 40k is bit low for an IT manager in Helsinki, I'd expect about 4000 a month which is 53k a year for a manager position (tax 30-35% after deductions). Depends on where hubby works of course. A small family should get by on that OK if you are used to budgeting as it is.

Major expense in Helsinki area is housing (I am assuming you are moving to the area, if not the salary will be lower but expenses more so). And it kind of determines your other major expense, transportation. Basically the options are to get an appartment somewhere with decent public transport in which case you can get by with one car (200 to 300 a month) or none at all. Or head to deep suburbia, get a house and two cars. Then again, if your husband will actually pay 40% on 40k income, chances are he has a fully paid company car, which is calculated as income at about 6k a year. So the taxable income is 46k, taxes about 15k, 15/40=37,5%?

As for benefits, check http://www.stm.fi/Resource.phx/eng/subj ... /index.htx

Finally, if you are going to be a housewife, family day care is quite popular way to get extra income. Basically, it is a form of private daycare. Someone, usually a housewife with under school age kids of her own, takes couple kids in for a day (~7 hours) or half day. I don't know how much that pays, I also don't know if there are some qualifications required, or how it works in general, but it might be something to look at if you are interested.

[Karhunkoski]

Have you been here to check out what % tax you will pay (I very much doubt it will be 40%).

http://vero.fi/default.asp?language=ENG ... RO_ENGLISH

[sinikala]

And you are a student - so what do you know about work / life balance? It's 00:24 and I am taking a break from writing a presentation for customers visiting tomorrow afternoon.

Well students don't have it that easy, certainly in the last couple of years of my degree in Scotland they worked us to the bone! And anyway, I have actually worked for a couple of years in academic journals publishing and as a trainee teacher, so I do have some idea....I'd rather be working on a presentation than marking books....

I don't dispute that UK students have to work hard, but that has nothing to do with work / life balance.

You have only been in Finland a few months, and I understood you are a student here, so I wonder how you can make a comparison with the work life balance elsewhere? As you don't actually work in Finland do you?

Note please that in France and Germany unions are in discussions about increasing the working week from 35 hours. In Finland most people work 37,5 hours per week, our union bargained that we work 40.

Does this mean that the French and Germans have an even better work/life balance? They currently work less hours.

[kay30]

I don't know if the work/life balance exists in Finland more than anywhere else. I routinely see people with children in my office staying until 7-8PM, more often than not. Yes, they have good jobs. Now you don't think that those good, well-paid jobs go to those people who leave exactly at 5PM now do you? Of course not.

[Karhunkoski]

Fair comment Kay30 re good jobs going to people who bust their ass.

However, on balance, everyone I know here works much fewer hours than people I knew in the UK (yes, similar jobs of course). I'm not saying that there aren't people in Finland who put massive hours in, just that on balance, the working day seems shorter here.

The other thing I've noticed is the practice of "claiming back" hours when someone puts in overtime. I've seen this with the MD of the Finnish division of an international company, so it's not limited to the rank & file.