Need to carry your passports/residence permits with you? :-)

[network_engineer]

Hi all,

Anybody read these articles? In English here and then the Finnish version here.

Comments? Views?

Daryl: What is your opinion on this? As I read it, the Aliens Act does not require immigrants to carry their passports/residence permit on them 24/7, while in Finland. Or does it?

Kind regards.

PS: Maybe I should have posted this to the 'Living in Finland' section. Apologies, if this is the wrong section.

[Hank W.]

Not the Aliens act, but the The Police Act.

Section 10
Establishing identity

In order to carry out an individual duty, police officers have the right to obtain from anyone information on his or her name, personal identity code, or, if this does not exist, date of birth and nationality, and a place where they can be contacted.

Police officers have the right to apprehend anyone who refuses to give the information referred to in subsection 1 or gives what is likely to be false information on the matters referred to therein. Persons so apprehended shall be released as soon as the necessary information has been obtained,
but no later than 24 hours after being apprehended.

So it doesn't say anywhere one has to carry pasport, but as to avoid a "likely to be false" situation, it might be an intelligent thing to do.

[network_engineer]

Hi Hank,

I can definitely understand the need to carry around an ID. Should not a certified identity card issued by the state suffice , such as the "pink" henkilökortti?

If not, what exactly is the purpose of this henkilökortti? It is not even accepted as an identity document for travel purposes even within the Schengen/Nordic region, despite the fact that it is a certified identity document.

My driver's license suffices for other matters, such as paying with a credit card over 50 Euros or at the bank or the maistratti.

If this is indeed the case, then they should consider issuing IDs card for the purpose of establishing right of residence, i.e. a certificate other than the sticker in the passport.

Furthermore, if this is indeed the case, then why are the "aliens" not advised of this duty to carry their passports etc on them all the time?

Daryl, please do advise the correct understanding on this.

Kind regards

[Hank W.]

*Sigh* When the vice squad raids for prostitutes, how many eastern business ladies do you expect the police to find carrying a pink henkilökortti

Having an ID card or a Finnish drivers licence of course means you have a henkilötunnus and a legitimate resident. However if you are not a resident then you won't be having one, so if you are a tourist on a "business trip" then you obviously need be carrying your passport.

[Rosamunda]

If not, what exactly is the purpose of this henkilökortti? It is not even accepted as an identity document for travel purposes even within the Schengen/Nordic region, despite the fact that it is a certified identity document.

Are you sure about this? I have friends in France who drove up here a couple of years ago (through Belgium, Holland, Germany, Denmark and Sweden) with their French ID cards (the same friends joined us in Tunisia last week also travelling on their French ID cards). My understanding is that henkilökortti with photo is fine for travel within the EU (even by air).

Personally I am quite happy living my day to day existence with a pink cardboard drivers licence from France (valid indefinitely) and an expired Finnish residency card. My current passport does not have the official stamp in it anyway. And being closer to 50 than 15, I have never had to prove my age to anybody in Finland. I don't hang around in bars or nightclubs either

[Hank W.]

Are you sure about this? I have friends in France who drove up here a couple of years ago (through Belgium, Holland, Germany, Denmark and Sweden) with their French ID cards (the same friends joined us in Tunisia last week also travelling on their French ID cards). My understanding is that henkilökortti with photo is fine for travel within the EU (even by air).

if you are French and travelling with a French ID card. if you are a Finn you can travel on a Finnish ID card. However a Finn cannot travel on a French ID nor a french on a Finnish ID card. Got to do with citizenship.

[Rosamunda]

Well that's pretty stupid. You are either European or you ain't. Total bureaucratic nuts.

[Rasbelin]

Comments? Views?

First of all it's important to distinguish the situation at hand, because the main point in this case was that the police was rounding up illegal foreign female citizens that had no work permits and were conducting illegal business as prostitutes. So this raid had to do with prostitution and not with just randomly checking the documents of some foreigners.

As you I wouldn't worry about the situation. Ask yourself "Do I look like a prostitute? Do I look like I would be doing some other monkey business?" If both answers were no, you shouldn't be worried about being of foreign origin in Finland, but yet not carrying all the time all the paperwork. If you would be some day stopped by the police for some questioning, then there's no need to worry for the paperwork, as long as you have some form of identification.

If not, what exactly is the purpose of this henkilökortti? It is not even accepted as an identity document for travel purposes even within the Schengen/Nordic region, despite the fact that it is a certified identity document.

I presume you are not a Finnish citizen, so thus you have a Finnish foreign resident alien identity card, which can be issued to foreigners with permanent residency in Finland and that are registered in the Finnish population database (i.e. you have a Finnish SSN). This is why your ID card can't be used as an official travel document abroad, as you then need a proof of citizenship (no matter if Scandinavia, Schengen or some other country) and not just residency. The actual Finnish national ID card also functions as proof of citizenship, so that's why it can be used a substitute for your passport within the Schengen area.

So what's the point then having an ID of the type you have? It's your resident certificate, meaning you have access to municipal health care (i.e. GP, dental care, etc.), you have the same rights as all other residents (notice: not citizens) and it works as your Finnish ID, so you don't have to be carrying around your foreign passport or the EU standard ID card from another EU country, meaning you use it instead to prove who you are at banks, etc.

[Rasbelin]

I have friends in France who drove up here a couple of years ago (through Belgium, Holland, Germany, Denmark and Sweden) with their French ID cards (the same friends joined us in Tunisia last week also travelling on their French ID cards). My understanding is that henkilökortti with photo is fine for travel within the EU (even by air).

That's because they apparently were fully qualified French citizens with full citizenship rights, including the right to French travel documents. This means they had a French EU standard ID card that can be used with the Schengen area instead of traveling with a passport. Remember that what you are asked for when you enter a foreign country is a proof of citizenship and the right to travel as a citizen of that country, not some piece of paper that states you have the right to be a foreign alien in Finland or France. So yes, the Finnish photo ID card can be used abroad within the Schengen area, but it must be one issued to a Finnish citizen and not of the type you get with a permanent resident permit, because you then still remain as the citizen of whatever country you originate from.

[Mook]

if you are French and travelling with a French ID card. if you are a Finn you can travel on a Finnish ID card. However a Finn cannot travel on a French ID nor a french on a Finnish ID card. Got to do with citizenship.

The cards henkilökortit that foreigners get are slightly different to the ones for the locals. The Finns get one that says their nationality is "fin" while foreigners just get xxx.

Incidently, back in 1999 they used to give out plastic resident's permits, but that stopped..

[raamv]

That's because they apparently were fully qualified French citizens with full citizenship rights, including the right to French travel documents. This means they had a French EU standard ID card that can be used with the Schengen area instead of traveling with a passport. Remember that what you are asked for when you enter a foreign country is a proof of citizenship and the right to travel as a citizen of that country, not some piece of paper that states you have the right to be a foreign alien in Finland or France. So yes, the Finnish photo ID card can be used abroad within the Schengen area, but it must be one issued to a Finnish citizen and not of the type you get with a permanent resident permit, because you then still remain as the citizen of whatever country you originate from.

Best Reason/explanation I ve seen so far...

[network_engineer]

Hi all,

Hank/Rasbelin: I've just glanced at the news, however, I don't recollect it saying that they were a vice-squad or that they were looking for sex workers - it just says that they were looking for illegal aliens. And as far as the news goes, it just talks about people being rounded up, does not mention people in a specific trade.

Penelope: Yes, I am sure of this. To the extent, SAS almost has an official policy that "pink" ID cards are not accepted, at check-in, nor at the gate. Now, if your French friends drove up, I am assuming that they are French citizens with a French EU ID card? It isn't a problem either ways if you are a French citizen.

It seems that there are three cards in question, please correct my understanding:

1. The Finnish Identity card issues to Finns that is accepted as a EU identity card (a blue coloured one or a pink one with the citizenship defined)

2. The permanent residence card issued to EU citizens residing in Finland (that also might state their citizneship) (who also might be carrying a blue coloured identity card issued by their home countries.

3. The pink identity card that can be issued to all, citizens, non-EU residents and EU citizens resident in Finland, however, for non-EU-residents, the citizenship is marked as XXX.

Correct???

I.e. I am trying to say that in Finland, the EU citizens get a card that certifies their residence (as far as I am aware), something the size of a credit card, however, the non-EU residents have the certificate [sticker] in their passport. No other IDs establishing them as residents are available, again, as far as I know. The only identity card is one that establishes identity, picture, SS number, etc. In the citizenship field, it is marked as XXX.

If they issued another certificate, such as a card that establishes also the right of residence, then that would be great.

As regards the point of having an ID: My KELA card suffices for e.g. to municipal health care, and my driving license for other purposes.

Kind regards.

[Hank W.]

I've just glanced at the news, however, I don't recollect it saying that they were a vice-squad or that they were looking for sex workers - it just says that they were looking for illegal aliens. And as far as the news goes, it just talks about people being rounded up, does not mention people in a specific trade.

...."Everybody knows" what the restaurant is, besides which prostitution itself isn't illegal, so they cannot do a raid on that suspicion. They'd have to have proof of aggravated pimping whereas ID check is ot alleging anything, just a check.

Adults’ Night Club Soho was opened for the current clientèle two years ago in Punavuori’s Ratakatu. Restaurant Punavuoren Soho at the same location is undergoing renovation.
Previously, a similar restaurant was run in other premises in Mannerheimintie in downtown Helsinki, but it was closed down two years ago.


From the older linked article:

Police made simultaneous raids on three restaurants in downtown Helsinki on Friday night. The aim was to search for illegal alien residents. Four Russian women and one Zambian woman were caught and one Russian woman was fined.
The targets of the raid were Alcatraz, Mermaid, and Mikado. The three nightclubs have recently been mentioned in the press because of probes police have conducted into suspected prostitution at Helsinki restaurants.

If you can't read in between the lines then you still have a lot to learn about Finland.

e.g. "three women in a national costume were denied entry to a restaurant" - so you expect them to be afghani ladies in a burqa???

[Hank W.]

It seems that there are three cards in question, please correct my understanding:

1. The Finnish Identity card issues to Finns that is accepted as a EU identity card (a blue coloured one or a pink one with the citizenship defined)

2. The permanent residence card issued to EU citizens residing in Finland (that also might state their citizneship) (who also might be carrying a blue coloured identity card issued by their home countries.

3. The pink identity card that can be issued to all, citizens, non-EU residents and EU citizens resident in Finland, however, for non-EU-residents, the citizenship is marked as XXX.

No, there is two cards in question:
1=3. A national identity card given to all residents, which in the case of citizens includes nationality and is thus valid for international travel. Non-Finns get XXX and it is not valid for them. The reason being it is used in lieu of a passport, and passports can be issued only by the nation the person is a citizen of.

and then 2.

I don't really know if my ID is more blue or pink; drivers licence is definitely pink.

But if you'd actually read about the ID's on the police page - it would be straight from the horses mouth.

[flyingyellowpig]

you have to care your ID cards all times,specially in Barcelona and Madrid.Usually a foreigner have NIE(Alien ID Number) and Securidad Social(Social Security Number).So no need to care your passport around,the NIE has a picture,your nationality,age and place of birth in Spanish.All foreigner,incl EU and non-EU citizens are required to have this documents.