Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

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sinikettu
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Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by sinikettu » Thu May 08, 2008 11:24 am

OK if one lives 20 kilometers or more from an Alko but has a local grocers shop to buy a bottle of wine :thumbsup:
When I lived in Sweden to was an hours drive to the nearest System Bolaget...but the local Snabköppet would oblige with a well known and used back door sales out let.
They bought for you on a day before order basis and slightly raised price if you were a regular and good customer.
Well known, even buy the local police who turned a blind eye..probably were regular customers them selves. My Swedish colleagues say this is nation wide practice in rural areas.

But. In Finland. :roll: .Dream on...Matti Heikkilä...The new director of the National Research and Development Centre for Welfare and Health. Not only calls for Wines to be available in food shops but he wants price reductions.

Already I notice that the Ilta Rags are running shock article with headers like.."Wine from the Milk Shops!"

Mr Heikkilä also could have some conflict when his department merges with the National Public Health Institute..Their director wants keski olut strength reduced.

http://www.yle.fi/news/left/id90095.html

http://virtual.finland.fi/stt/showartic ... up=General


People do not become more irritable as they grow old - they simply stop making the effort to avoid annoying others.

Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

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TampereOwl
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by TampereOwl » Thu May 08, 2008 12:30 pm

You got a link for the Ilta rags pieces? I lost my vappu eve copy of IS, replete with 5 page spread on what celebrities were drinking and detailed chart on what was the cheapest way to get the most alcohol into your system, on a cent per centiletre of pure alcohol basis.

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sinikettu
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by sinikettu » Thu May 08, 2008 12:48 pm

Voi Voi...Both The Ilta Lehti and Ilta Sanomat on line web pages have changed their stories and head lines.
The word..ei ...now appears.
But the two English Language links still have it in the affirmative.

Here is the re-written Sanomat version.
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/uutiset/kotim ... id=1529043

The Lehti usualy wants a subscription but see if this link works.
http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2008050 ... 9_uu.shtml

I can assure you that 1 hours ago that headine was "Viini Maitokaupalla". and that "He wanted" not "ei haluakaan!"..
People do not become more irritable as they grow old - they simply stop making the effort to avoid annoying others.

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Karhunkoski
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by Karhunkoski » Thu May 08, 2008 5:52 pm

sinikettu wrote: Matti Heikkilä...The new director of the National Research and Development Centre for Welfare and Health. Not only calls for Wines to be available in food shops but he wants price reductions.

In the long term, perhaps it's not such a bad idea :)

I've been thinking about this today, trying to work out some more distant reasons why Finns seem to have a problem with alcohol. Is there perhaps some similarity with the parent-child conversation, where the parents tell their kids that they MUST not smoke or take drugs, instilling this message with such rigour, that smoking and drugs become a must-have, the forbidden fruit that feels so much more special because it was so difficult to get? Look back at prohibition, the strong influence of the church, the shame that was cast at Finns in years gone by, if they dared to take a drink, the ridiculous alcohol ration cards, the prohibitive pricing.... it all contributed to elevating the demand for alcohol, making it something "special", something to lust after......as soon as prices dropped, consumption soared.

Compare to France, where alcohol for most is something enjoyed in moderation, something that is readily available, it isn't viewed as something so special that you need to drink the bottle dry, should you be lucky enough to find one in your possession. It just seems to me, that Finland fooked up the situation many moons ago, just how will the culture return to sensibility? Immigration? :D
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mCowboy
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by mCowboy » Thu May 08, 2008 5:57 pm

Karhunkoski wrote:Finland fooked up the situation many moons ago, just how will the culture return to sensibility? Immigration? :D
yes, import more sensitive, caring husbands, who don't beat their wives in a drunken stupor... :twisted:
Get in there...

Tiwaz
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by Tiwaz » Thu May 08, 2008 6:29 pm

Instead drinking steadily along the day and driving their cars with promille or few in their blood. Day in, day out.

Too casual attitude to alcohol is equally hazardous as one of "perskänni perjantaina".

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Karhunkoski
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by Karhunkoski » Thu May 08, 2008 6:33 pm

Or perhaps the real reason is the inability of Finnish males to confront and discuss the issue, without resorting to an emotional response :lol:
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Tiwaz
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by Tiwaz » Thu May 08, 2008 7:33 pm

Karhunkoski wrote:Or perhaps the real reason is the inability of Finnish males to confront and discuss the issue, without resorting to an emotional response :lol:
Nah. I have no problem with alcohol. I do not use any.

Truth is that the "civilized" cultures tend to end up being under influence more time than finnish. Finns on other hand tend to be more heavily under influece that more limited time they are.

That is, continuous small dosage compared to total drunken stupor. Former has nasty habit of reducing your capabilities while you remain relatively functional. Benefit of second is that you are hopefully in no shape to start your car, not to mention drive it.

Already very small amount of alcohol in blood impairs ones judgement. If alcohol is accepted and common substance used all the time, this will lead to situation where people spend increased amount of their time with impaired judgement. Like news after spanish bus accident. People in Spain having habit of driving around after having consumed alcohol... Resulting in drivers being in reality unfit to drive. And surroundings accepting this behaviour.

Bad, bad solution.

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Karhunkoski
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by Karhunkoski » Fri May 09, 2008 6:06 am

...or thirdly, a defensive response. :lol:

..... and try to remove that chip from your shoulder :) you know, the one that makes you think all "foreigners" think Finland is uncivilised, most foreigners agree that FInland really is quite civilised.

But back to the point..

I quite see the angle you're coming from, better to be totally sloshed from Friday evening until Monday morning, and totally sober all week? The first problem that comes to mind is that it is much healthier to drink 3-4 beers every day of the week, than to take all 24 on a weekend. Your liver finds this easier to handle, and you are sober to drive 7 mornings a week.

But my point was to debate how historical controls in Finland have contributed to building up such a blood-lust to drink so much alcohol...

Looking back at the French, IIRC correctly, between the 1960s and 200x, their alcohol consumption per capita reduced from 20+ litres/year (of pure alcohol) to <10 litres/year. During the same period, in Finland the figures increased from about 2 litres/year to around 12 litres/year. (These are approx figures, before someone pick me up on a decimal point :) )
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Tiwaz
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by Tiwaz » Fri May 09, 2008 8:32 am

You mean France, which started in 90s huge campaign against alcohol with TV-ads, warning labels on bottles etc reduced drinking?

How is that possible...

You are not sober to drive if you use alcohol. Specially if you use it all day long, couple glasses here, one there... You presume you are capable of driving, but alcohol takes time to leave your system.

http://www.gadling.com/2007/05/08/europ ... in-the-eu/

This "civilized" way of drinking appears to result in higher than usual amount of fatalities on the road with alcohol being part to blame.

I do not want anyone who is under influence of alcohol behind wheel. As bad as finnish system now is for health of idiots who drink, at least it keeps them 100% sober most of the week. And unable to drive for good part of rest.
Spain, on the other hand, holds the dubious honor of having the highest percentage of drunk driving fatalities: 29.5 percent. France and Portugal follow closely with 28.8 and 27.8 percent respectively.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6920720.stm

Introduction of alcohol as daily drink is completely opposite to what we should be doing. I could not care less about idiots who drink themselves into death and have their livers fail. I am deeply concerned over those who die because someone took glasses of wine over dinner, beer at some point and got to car because he was still resembling sober. While alcohol was already destroying his judgement, his reactions and perception.

And hits something and kills someone else. Like our spanish friend with finnish tourist bus. He lives, many others do not.

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mCowboy
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by mCowboy » Fri May 09, 2008 10:15 am

I say do it... let everyone have easy access to cheap booze... and let all the drunks drink themselves to death... much cheaper on the gov't on the long run and less whinos in the parks.... :twisted:
Get in there...

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Karhunkoski
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by Karhunkoski » Fri May 09, 2008 10:33 am

:thumbsup: Cowboy
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sinikala
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by sinikala » Fri May 09, 2008 10:36 am

mCowboy wrote:I say do it... let everyone have easy access to cheap booze... and let all the drunks drink themselves to death... much cheaper on the gov't on the long run and less whinos in the parks.... :twisted:
Plusses:
- drink themselves into an early grave = less pension required (see Russia)

Minuses:
- less tax raised on alcohol sales - less tax = less jollies for the politicians
- less income taxes collected, alkies often end up unemployed and on state handouts
- time off work lowers workplace productivity
- medical care as they approach a messy end with liver failure etc.
- without societal pressure, I reckon plenty of Finns would take you up on your offer = half the population getting pissed in the park.

On balance, your suggestion is not a good one.

For a change.
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Travmies
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by Travmies » Fri May 09, 2008 11:47 am

There are many folds and shades that define Finnish drinking or alcohol culture and its problems in regard to Finnish society. If we look beyond the Friday bottle, excessive binge drinking amount the youth and the obvious health risk from alcohol, just to name a few, we can see a profile appearing of Finnish culture, which seems to be negative, extremist and excessive, when the generally the personality of the country is more so the opposite. Much of the alcohol cultural perspectives does exist and is a real problem, such as the drinking styles and the need to demonise alcohol, however they exist in the realms of history, black and white ideologies regarding alcohol and force hope that abstinence in the home will help.

Just look at the reasons why people drink? To get drunk, to forget, to relax, to be braver with girls / women, to be more confident, to meet people, to chat with friend, to socialise, to reduce stress and so on. However, in Finland the prime objective (and I am generalising here) is to get drunk. The idea that alcohol can be a positive aspect of ones life in is regarded as an anomaly, because the mindset of Finnish culture is “Alcohol is bad”. I am sure we have all had that look from the Alko staff when we have been to Alko more than once in a week.

However, if we consider where people drink in Finland? It is at home, in someone else’s home, in the park or in a pub. Now, this is where the main part of the problem lays. Most European countries have what we could call a pub culture / bar culture where every village has a local place of worship (I mean a pub / bar and not a church), now I know many will argue that in Helsinki and other larger cities a pub culture exists. Nevertheless, it is still rare to find a pub culture steeped in personal and local history, where individual know that there will be a social atmosphere, built on old friends and good beer. The reason these places don’t really exist as a norm, is because there is no tradition for it, every new pub that opens outside the big city uses the same format. Big screen TV, cheap beer, cold atmosphere, toilets with no paper, individuals sitting in there own places, and a generally unwelcoming place. These place alienate the mid-classes and women (whom have the residue income to spend), because the place is so macho and uninviting that its not a nice place to socialise with friend on a weekday evening. Then the pub is shocked because they are out of business in 6 month, because they are empty most of the week. Then another owner takes over and does the same again, but I guess in a way that is a tradition.

So where can people learn to drink responsibly? Nowhere is the truth. In most of Europe to take one first drink with ones father is a tradition, a journey towards being an adult or a right of passage. It comes in the form of a glass of beer or wine at Christmas or a pint after the football. So, how would Finland see this form of social education, well lets go back to the concept the “Alcohol is bad”. What parents in their right mind would teach the children something, which within ones society is considered bad. The problem is that drinking responsibly means drinking while ones children can see, educating them towards a responsible way of drinking. If they see from an early age that drinking is a positive and enjoyable activity if done in moderation, they will pass that experience and responsibility onwards.

As for the alcohol monopoly (Alko) in Finland, it is just another force hope that control of the individuals drink will bring a healthier society as well as getting easy taxes out of the Finnish people. Soft taxes always works, but it’s unwittingly created a secret and private alcohol needy society hither to providing Finland with alcoholism.
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Karhunkoski
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Re: Wines to be sold in small grocery stores.

Post by Karhunkoski » Fri May 09, 2008 12:04 pm

Travmies wrote: What parents in their right mind would teach the children something, which within ones society is considered bad. The problem is that drinking responsibly means drinking while ones children can see, educating them towards a responsible way of drinking.
:thumbsup:
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