Replacing a light switch (warning: pic-heavy)...

[AlexInHelsinki]

Erm...so yeah. I'm trying to replace my old double switch with a dimmer switch to make some moody "oooh la la" lighting for my bedroom. BUT I'm having problems.

Tried swapping out the old switch for the new dimmer and blew a fuse in the fusebox. Landlord came while I was away and took the new switch off, replaced the fuse. When I got back and tried to put the old switch back on so I at least have some light while I'm trying to figure out what the problem is, it didn't work. Now I can't even get the OLD light switch to work.

Landlord said the switchbox is where all the power to the room comes in, and the dimmer couldn't handle that so the fuse blew. He said I need a type 5 switch and said I can't put a dimmer in...though I find it very hard to believe that there's NO WAY to install a dimmer switch. I also don't know why I need a type 5 switch when my old switch was working just fine. Unless he said that IF I want to install a dimmer, it needs to be a type 5. I dunno...my roommate relayed the message, so it's a bit unclear.

Soooo...I need to make these (I numbered them with tape so I could keep track of what is what):




go into here:








6 wires into 3 holes doesn't really work.


The original switch looked like this:









...so as you can see, I'm not sure why there area total of six wires (four black wires and two grey wires, tips of the two greys connected with a sugarcube) coming out of the switchbox. There is one grey and one black coming from the bottom of the switchbox, and one grey and THREE blacks coming down from the top. What happened to having just a positive, a negative, and a ground??? I'm suspecting that it's double wired for two different lights, since it's a double switch (though it always only worked for the ceiling light).

AAAAActually, now that I'm thinking about it, I just realised that there's a power outlet below the switch that doesn't work at the moment; I think the wires coming up from the bottom of the switchbox go to the outlet, and the ones coming from the top go to the main ceiling-mounted light in the room. Though still, this is confusing because that would mean that there are two wires (the one grey and one black coming from the bottom) connected to the outlet, and four wires (the other grey and three other blacks coming down from the top) connected to the ceiling fixture. That still leaves me with four wires coming from the ceiling light, when I only know what to do with three

Grey is usually ground and black is hot, but I'm too nervous to test them with my electricity tester.

Funny enough, imprinted on the back of the plastic "cup" of the switchbox that holds all the wiring and the back end of the switch, I saw this:



Yet as you can see, the old switch says "10/250~" and the new switch says "230V~" ("~" means AC or "Alternating Current").
The "380V" marking on the plastic *could* mean either that's the maximum for that piece of material, OR it could mean that in fact, that is the voltage running through those wires, in which case I don't want to use the electricity screwdriver to see if the wires are hot, 'cause it's only rated up to 250V.

Phew.

I want my lights to work!

I don't think I'm going to touch anything else myself; if this was a normal switch I could do it, but apparently it's not. The building was built in the 30s, so who knows what's going on. We've called someone who will be coming by, but I want to understand what the heck is going on with the wiring in the meantime.

[Mattlill2000]

Dig deep in your pockets and call a electrician

[Pursuivant]

Sweet tapdancing jehovah, I should have invited you over to fix my vacoom switch before mutilating the poor thing this morning... do you want to rewire a motorbike?

but I want to understand what the heck is going on with the wiring in the meantime.

Oh, easy, you f*t it, ever heard of "if it works don't go fixin"... naah, I'd show this to my electrical nephew and he'd be scratching his butt for a while too... 1930's wiring is on the many levels of "fun"... you sure the double switch isn't also switching the socket on&off? Its a grounded one ?? Seems you got a live in, live out and then... umm... yeah... that wiring is bizarre... though no worry theres only 230 running through, only the kitchen stove is phased usually.

[AlexInHelsinki]

Yeah, that's what I'm sayin'. I suspect it's a double switch to control the ceiling light AND the socket. But I never tried the socket before I f*cked everything up, so I don't know; maybe the socket just never worked. And yeah, 230V won't kill you if you don't have a pacemaker or something...neither will 380V, but I imagine 380 sure would HURT. Not gonna go poking some chintzy metal screwdriver electricity tester in there with the mains on.

Just realised that the other socket in the opposite corner doesn't work now either (where I've got the TV etc. plugged in, tho I never turn it on), so I've only got one outlet for my whole room now.

To add insult to injury, I just blew up the circuit board in my (American) stereo system trying to plug it in without a voltage converter like a total idiot (figured it was similar to a computer and didn't need one...was obviously wrong), and blew the electricity in the whole flat at the same time.

*($@!$%@#^#%!!

Maybe I should think twice about ripping out the double french doors and redoing the doorway...dunno if I'm cut out for DYI home improvement in a foreign country.

[Jukka Aho]

Yeah, that's what I'm sayin'. I suspect it's a double switch to control the ceiling light AND the socket.

This type of a switch is called kruunukytkin, or sarjakytkin, or 5-kytkin. Chandeliers often have double wiring and two separately controlled sets of bulbs... being a perfect match for it. You could also use the same kind of switch with a ceiling light/fan, to control the fan and the light individually.

Hence, the other side of the old double switch might have controlled the same ceiling light outlet you’ve been using this far... but as you’ve been using a “normal”, simple ceiling light – instead of a special light fixture with two separately controlled sets of lamps – the “unused side” has just been left disconnected in the ceiling box.

As far as I know, there are “double” (5-kytkin, sarjakytkin, kruunukytkin) dimmer switches on the market these days... and these can be used as a direct drop-in replacement for an ordinary double switch... For instance, Ensto seems to have those on their site. And while I’m no electrician looking at your dimmer it too would seem to have two “output channels” which perhaps are individually controllable? Compare to the wiring diagram for this Ensto product (the Asennusohje PDF, Fig. 1).

If I’m reading the Ensto site correctly, they would also appear to have a 5-kytkin with a dimmer on the other “side” and an ordinary on/off switch on the other “side” for those situations where you don’t really need two dimmer channels but still want to retain the ability to control the “other side”.

It’s of course possible that the other side of the old switch would have been wired to control a wall outlet, too, but a double-sided ceiling outlet for chandeliers is (or at least used to be) a fairly common arrangement, especially in living rooms... so I’d put my money on that.

Perhaps that extra wire does go to the wall outlet but was directly connected to the incoming live wire before you took the old switch out? And the two other wires go to the two “sides” of the ceiling outlet box? In any case, let a pro sort it out... electric shocks or fires are nasty things... especially if you manage to cause injuries or damage to innocent parties and/or their property instead of just yourself. (Not to mention such wiring jobs are illegal without proper training and certifications and will void the liability of the insurance company if something bad should happen, etc. etc. But you probably know all that.)

[AlexInHelsinki]

Thanks for shedding some light (tee hee) on this, Jukka!

This sounds about right, as it *is* a chandelier (and was originally meant to be, judging from the rather intricate and large ceiling medallion, mouldings, and the height of the ceilings). Also, I'm sure my bedroom did used to be the living room or parlor back in the day, as it's the largest room in the flat and has two sets of french doors.

In any case, I'm going to wait for da man. Nice to know I don't have a completely freak situation here, though.

Is it really illegal to change your own light switch in Finland? Electricians must make a killing...maybe I'm in the wrong field.

[Jukka Aho]

Thanks for shedding some light (tee hee) on this, Jukka!

To add to the above speculation, the gray wire in the wall box is probably neutral. Gray has been used to signify the “neutral” wire in older installations... but the modern standard for the neutral wire is blue. Old wiring jobs may employ quite wild and varying assortment of colors, especially for the “live” wires. (Sometimes red is protective earth, sometimes live, etc.)

These things were first properly standardized in 1974 when it was decreed that blue means “neutral” and yellow-green stripes “protective earth”. The colors for the live wires were black, brown, and black/white stripes back then. In 2002 the standard was changed again (due to EU-wide harmonization!) but the changes only affected the colors of the live wires (they serve as means of separating the different phases from each other in multi-phase installations.) The current color code is as follows:

L1: brown
L2: black
L3: gray (white)
N: (light) blue
PE: yellow-green stripes/markings (and a blue mark if it’s a PE+N)

(As far as I know the L1, L2, L3 colors are not strictly followed in installations where it is obvious everything is in single phase, anyway, but the colors for the live wires should always come from that set.)

In conclusion, it is best not to trust any color scheme but check and double-check the wiring, especially in old buildings.

• • •

Sorry to hear about your stereo. Many devices – especially the battery rechargers for laptops, mp3 players, cellphones, cameras, etc. – are voltage agnostic these days but you’d better always check out the ratings on the back panel anyway before plugging anything in.

The American power distribution system differs from the Finnish system not only in voltage but also in that even ordinary households here get all three phases in the breaker panel / distribution board. Different rooms or different parts of the house may be connected to different phases to distribute the load more evenly. Really power-hungry appliances – such as stoves (including sauna stoves) and electrical heating systems – may use (or require the use of) all three phases. These are typically “permanently” connected to the house wiring system but there are also special heavy-duty 3-phase outlets and plugs for movable appliances/tools such as table saws or cement mixers.

Is it really illegal to change your own light switch in Finland?

Yes. People without qualifications may...

• replace light bulbs, fluorescent tubes, etc.
• replace the ballasts for fluorescent tubes
• replace old-style ceramic fuses in the breaker panel (or switch the new-style circuit breakers on and off!), replace fuses in appliances and dimmers
• use a voltage tester for finding out whether some part or wire is “live”
• test fault-current circuit breakers (!)
• replace broken power cords and plugs for single-phase electrical appliances
• replace a broken switch in the middle of a lamp cord
• install a (ceiling) light
• install or replace a (ceiling) light outlet/panel
• install or replace a plug for a (ceiling) light, if one is required
• remove the cover panels of wall switches and outlets for work that requires that... such as painting the walls (the switches and outlets must not be “live” during that time)
• construct or repair single-phase extension cords
• build electrical appliances as a hobby; repair the said appliances
• install a tv/radio antenna
• install low-voltage electrical devices/systems (behind a transformer)
• dismantle electrical wiring systems that have been wholly disconnected from the distribution network
• dig cable trenches, lay cables in them (needs approval from a qualified electrician before the trench can be filled)

See here for a guide in PDF format, published by Turvatekniikan keskus, or TUKES (the local “safety technology authority” as they call themselves in English.) The items on the above list have been lifted from there.

In practice, you may do “actual” electrical installations as well – for example, if you’re building or renovating a house – as long as the wiring is not live and you’re under the supervision/guidance of a qualified electrician who will inspect and approve your work – signing it under his own name, so to speak – before it will be taken in use.

[Pursuivant]

To add insult to injury, I just blew up the circuit board in my (American) stereo system trying to plug it in without a voltage converter like a total idiot (figured it was similar to a computer and didn't need one...was obviously wrong), and blew the electricity in the whole flat at the same time.

Yeah, my stereosgot a thing in tha back you can switch 110/220 like you can in some computer powers. If you ain't done a switch you take the blue smoke out of the machine, and as appliances run on the blue smoke if it escapes...

I have some really erotic 1970's wiring with brown, black, grey and purple...

[Pursuivant]

To add insult to injury, I just blew up the circuit board in my (American) stereo system trying to plug it in without a voltage converter like a total idiot (figured it was similar to a computer and didn't need one...was obviously wrong), and blew the electricity in the whole flat at the same time.

I guess you should stick to battery operated applances

So whats your landlords opinion of the situation - he confiscated your toolkit yet?

[AlexInHelsinki]

So whats your landlords opinion of the situation - he confiscated your toolkit yet?

From the sound of it, he was cool with it, but I was in London so I have no idea.

Yesterday when I blew the power in the flat (again) whilst blowing up my stereo, my flatmate came out in the hall when I was changing the fuse and said "Alex...maaaaaaaaybe it's time to get an electrician in...??"

I have to say, I'm EXTREMELY frustrated that I wasn't able to figure this out. Not like me at all.

[Pursuivant]

We knows what you was plugging in
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