Education system ?

[sabsum]

Hi there,

Could somebody tell me the difference between the universities and polytechniques?Which one do u think is the better options from the point of quality education?
I was going thru the website of HSE and was quite surprised to know that the Degree program for business there is of 3 yrs(180 credits).I remember people in my home country saying that our bachelor programs aren't well recognised outside since they are of 3 yrs(and we dont have credit system) and other DEVELOPED countries have that for 4 yrs.
On the other hand,one IB student studying in Haaga-helia suggested me to join universities rather than polytechniques.So,i wonder if 3yrs education is well-recognised???

Any recommendations and guides?And yeh,is HSE one of the major targets of many students for studying business?

Looking forward for replies..........
thanks

[sammy]

Brief version:

The polytechnics (unversities of applied sciences, UAS) = professional (or vocational) higher education.
Universities = academic higher education.

Both are higher education, but they are not the "same".

Some additional info:

There are some subjects and degrees that you can only take at the UAS's - like nursing, and tourism & hospitality management for example. Conversely, you can only get a language teacher's degree, or become a historian, if you study at a university. Only universities can grant PhD degrees. In some fields, like e.g. business and engineering, the subjects overlap. But usually university degrees put more weight on traditional academia (i.e. theoretical depth) whereas UAS's tend to lean towards the practical side of things. Check out the "official blurb" at the Min of Ed pages.

In a way, if you talk about "quality", it's a bit like oranges and apples. An UAS Bachelor's does not necessarily give you the same depth of theoretical knowledge and skills as a Bachelor's from a University, but that's not the point - UAS's are not so much concerned with theoretical academia in the first place. For exapmple if you wish to do a Finnish University Master's after completing a Bachelors from a UAS, you may need to complete some bridging studies. Depends on the University, for example, the HSE has a separate application group for those that have a Bachelor's in Economics and B.Admin. from a Finnish UAS... they need e.g. to have a GMAT result of 500; you'll find the info in their application guide.

Recognition - that's another tough bit to answer in any definite manner, since ultimately there's no such 100% quarantee paragraph in the academic life (or working life) out there saying that university or employer X would HAVE to recognise a Finnish degree. Depends on whom you ask, really; but I would assume that -given the Bologna process with the ECTS credits and the Diploma Supplements and what have you- the degrees are fairly well and widely recognised.

If we talk about recognition in Finland, yes they definitely are recognised (as long as you remember the academic recognition bit about the UAS's being vocational higher education and not in that sense fully comparable to University education to start with) so they do provide you with the formal qualifications, but then again that (obtaining a degree) is nowadays no guarantee of getting a job.

You will find a list of recognised institutions on the Finnish Min of Ed pages.

Recognised polytechnics

Recognised universities

If you come across any others... well... 'nuff said

The Universities, btw, mainly only have their Bachelor's programmes in Finnish or Swedish. In Economics and Business, for example, I think the HSE is currently the only University offering a full Bachelor's in English.

And one important thing about the Master's programmes at the UAS's - note that you need to have three years of (relevant) work experience after completing your Bachelor's to be an eligible applicant for those.

[Rosamunda]

The Universities, btw, mainly only have their Bachelor's programmes in Finnish or Swedish. In Economics and Business, for example, I think the HSE is currently the only University offering a full Bachelor's in English.

I think Oulu has a bachelors programme in Education Management (or something like that) in English.

[sammy]

I think Oulu has a bachelors programme in Education Management (or something like that) in English.

Well, if there is they've managed to hide it well... Maybe it's been available at some point of time (?)... at least they do not currently advertise it on their websites - http://www.oulu.fi/degree/programmes.html or http://www.studyinoulu.fi/studyinformation/

[Rosamunda]

Actually it's a Masters programme . This is the one I was thinking of:

http://www.oulu.fi/ktk/kasope/master/
http://wwwedu.oulu.fi/opas0608/luku09.pdf

But I guess you can opt out of the Masters and use your credits to get a B.Ed. Only guessing though.

[sammy]

But I guess you can opt out of the Masters and use your credits to get a B.Ed. Only guessing though.

Erm... I don't think that would be possible, the courses on the Master's level are (obviously) on an advanced level so they're not the same as they require for the Bachelor's (a case of extent in credits not really matching the required content)... moreover, to be eligible for the Master's programme in the first place, you'd need to have a relevant Bachelor's degree already so it wouldn't make too much sense

Btw it is listed on the page http://www.oulu.fi/ktk/kasope/english/studies/ as an "undergraduate degree" - this undergraduate/postgraduate distinction in Finland causes some confusion since unlike in the UK for example, Master's degrees at the universities are still often referred to as undergraduate / first degrees because that's what they were before the Bologna 3+2 structures were introduced... so even now when we talk about postgraduate studies -and postgraduate students, jatko-opiskelijat- we tend to mean "post-Master's" i.e. Doctoral level studies and research. This may be confusing to those who are accustomed to think of Master's degrees as postgraduate degrees.

[Rosamunda]

Did you look at the .pdf file I linked to?

To me it looks pretty clear that the 180 credits for the bachelors are quite seperate to the further 120 credits for the Masters.

The M. Ed. programme is a 5-year degree programme leading first to a 3-year Bachelor's degree and then a further 2 years to the Master's degree.
(...)
The language of instruction being largely English, the programme is also suitable for students from other countries provided their English skills are good enough.

Somebody on the forum told me about this course, but I can't remember who it was.

[sammy]

Did you look at the .pdf file I linked to?

To me it looks pretty clear that the 180 credits for the bachelors are quite seperate to the further 120 credits for the Masters.

The M. Ed. programme is a 5-year degree programme leading first to a 3-year Bachelor's degree and then a further 2 years to the Master's degree.
(...)
The language of instruction being largely English, the programme is also suitable for students from other countries provided their English skills are good enough.

Somebody on the forum told me about this course, but I can't remember who it was.

Sorry, no I only briefly glanced the first link, my mistake! Hmm. I wonder, if it's "largely" available in English I wonder why it isn't listed on the sites I linked to previously (it's nowhere to be found on the main Oulu university programmes list, or the studyinoulu one) You can only find it on the Fac of Ed pages, and confusingly enough, the 2-year "Master's Degree Programme in Education and Globalisation" is listed in the same 'undergrad' category.

At this database you won't find the five-year programme if you search university Bachelor's programmes... which I think you should, if indeed it's also possible to complete the Bachelor's part in English. *mental note*

So you're right, if that's possible -and it must be I guess, since everyone has to take the Bachelor's nowadays before moving on to the Master's - then one could probably just stop and forget about the Master's - that is, with that Bachelor's already in your pocket, surely they can't force you to continue to the Master's? Or can they?

Well you see this is related to the 'new' 3+2 degree structure terminology; because it's called "Master's" I automatically thought this Master's programme would be something you'd apply to AFTER completing the Bachelor's elsewhere... usually the "International Master's programmes" indeed are two-year programmes not including the first degree.

Be as it may, it may not be of interest to the OP since he/she was after business and economics studies... but thanks for correcting me

[raamv]

Any recommendations and guides?And yeh,is HSE one of the major targets of many students for studying business?

Looking forward for replies..........
thanks

Both HSE and Hanken in Helsinki are pretty well rated..
HSE is now part of Aalto university and have extensive collaboration with Universities worldwide for Business studies..
Dont know about business studies in polytechniques ( Maybe Haaga-Helia)..

[sammy]

Any recommendations and guides?And yeh,is HSE one of the major targets of many students for studying business?

Looking forward for replies..........
thanks

Both HSE and Hanken in Helsinki are pretty well rated..
HSE is now part of Aalto university and have extensive collaboration with Universities worldwide for Business studies..
Dont know about business studies in polytechniques ( Maybe Haaga-Helia)..

If someone wishes to examine the national* applicant / study placement stats, they're available here... you need to know Finnish though, and be prepared to examine pdf's and Excel sheets But they could tell you a bit of the "popularity" of each institution.

UAS's - http://www.koulutusnetti.fi/index.php?file=276

Universities - http://www.koulutusnetti.fi/index.php?file=277 (which is not as yet complete, since the recent joint application round for the universities was the first one and the results are not yet available there... only the previous rounds...)

There's also these joint application stats for some universities' business & economics programmes where you can compare the lowest entry points etc - http://www.kauppatieteet.fi/tilastoja - however this does not include all universities! (a quick look tells me that e.g. Hanken and U. of Jyväskylä School of Business and Economics at least are missing from that list)

(* foreign applicants are not included in these stats, unless specifically mentioned... the 'international programmes' and those with non-Finnish school leaving certificates apply in a different category)

[sabsum]

Thanks a lot for the description...

And one important thing about the Master's programmes at the UAS's - note that you need to have three years of (relevant) work experience after completing your Bachelor's to be an eligible applicant for those.

So,i can continue my Master's program right after completing my bachelor in a university.........In that sense,the course duration is less(saves ur precious time)..........sounds more beneficial(but still i think practical knowledge is better than theoritical

One more question:

What if i completed my degree in a university and want to join a polytechnique for my Masters?Will i be eligible to apply directly or still need 3 yrs experience??..............Orrr,will that b a stupidity????

[forest_girl]

that would be strange in my opinion, but they don't take you anyway without 3years of experience, I think There is no difference which institution you have graduated from...

well UAS have of course a theoretical part too, but they also make a good amount of a practical part

I am not sure if getting into Master's degee right after Bachelor is a good idea.. I would acquire some experience before doing that and if I feel that I want some more, then I would apply for Master's... Of course, that's my own opinion
well, you even may change your opinion during studies of Bachelor and change the study programme

[sammy]

that would be strange in my opinion, but they don't take you anyway without 3years of experience, I think

Yes you need to have the 3-year work experience in between to apply for the UAS Master's. You need to bear in mind that these UAS Master's programmes are primarily targeted for those already in the working life - that's why they mostly are part-time studies; see e.g. the description of this Haaga-Helia programme:

Degree Programme in International Business Management

Degree Programme in International Business Management (90 ECTS) known as IBMA is a master programme offered completely in English. It leads to an internationally recognized degree called Master of Business Administration. Accomplishment of IBMA takes around 2-3 years. The contact sessions are scheduled for evening hours and for the weekends because the programme is targeted to students who work full-time.

[jen]

Actually it's a Masters programme . This is the one I was thinking of:

http://www.oulu.fi/ktk/kasope/master/
http://wwwedu.oulu.fi/opas0608/luku09.pdf

But I guess you can opt out of the Masters and use your credits to get a B.Ed. Only guessing though.

I am doing that programme at the moment, and yes it would technically be possible to "take your papers out" once you have completed all the bachelor level courses and completed the bachelor thesis since it is split into B.Ed ans M.Ed because of Bolongne. However if you tried to teach with that in finland, first off you would have difficulty getting a job and secondly, if you did (by some miracle) get a teaching position you would be paid as an unqualified teacher. I suppose though it would be accepted outside finland where the standard teachers qualification is a bachelors.

[jen]

Sorry, no I only briefly glanced the first link, my mistake! Hmm. I wonder, if it's "largely" available in English I wonder why it isn't listed on the sites I linked to previously

They 20 students per year but max. 5 of then can be non-Finnish. I think that is why the don't class themselves as an international degree and advertise on CIMO and things. it is called "International Programme" because it has an international/intercultural/global focus on education.