How to use Finnish "late" word?

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garoowood
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How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by garoowood » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:47 pm

I knew sb. asked this topic before, but the answers are somehow fuzzy to me, can Jukka give a try?
Both myöhä and myöhäinen are Adjective, myöhässä and myöhään seem to be Adverb.
But in
Olen liian myöhässä.
myöhässä seems to act as an adjective?
Can I say olen myöhä, or olen myöhäinen?
Huomennä on liian myöhä. Koskaan ei ole liian myöhäistä.
why can't myöhää be used in the negative sentence, it is also a partitive of an adjective?
And when to use myöhäinen and myöhään?



How to use Finnish "late" word?

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Pursuivant
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Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by Pursuivant » Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:41 pm

Olen myöhässä = I am late
Nyt on myöhä = Now is late (more like a noun there as in "late of the night") its a part in iltamyöhä or yömyöhä
Nyt on myöhäistä = Now it is too late (the train went)

Nyt on myöhä, liian myöhäistä ehtiä junaan, seuraava menee aamulla.

Tulin myöhään = I came and it was late
Tulin myöhässä = I came and I was late
And when to use myöhäinen and myöhään?
Myöhäinen ilta toi lepakot esille. Neitsyt sulki kammionsa liian myöhään ja Dracula liihotteli sisään. ;-[
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

Jukka Aho
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Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by Jukka Aho » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:41 am

garoowood wrote:Both myöhä and myöhäinen are Adjective, myöhässä and myöhään seem to be Adverb.
But in
Olen liian myöhässä.
myöhässä seems to act as an adjective?
Iso suomen kielioppi has an article about “adverbs which express relative time” and which can take on some qualifying attributes themselves. One of the examples given is Lähtö oli vajaan neljännestunnin myöhässä.
garoowood wrote:Can I say olen myöhä
No, that would mean “I am [the quality of being] late [as a time of day].”
garoowood wrote:or olen myöhäinen?
Well, I guess you can, at least in situations where myöhäinen is an attribute for some other word, such as Olen myöhäinen takinkääntäjä – you came late to the party of turncoats. I think it may sound a bit awkward though, and could usually be replaced with some other expression. Also, mere Olen myöhäinen, “I am late [as a characteristic qualifier]”, with no another word to qualify with the myöhäinen, sounds as if it would require some further explanation: in what sense are you myöhäinen?

There is the charactonym “Matti Myöhäinen” for referring to a person who is seemingly always late. Or at least, who is missing a particular opportunity because of being late or slow to act. If the reference needs to be made to a female you can use “Maija Myöhäinen”, instead. These references are often made in plural, too, possibly by omitting the space between the first and the last name and the capitalization, too: mattimyöhäiset.
garoowood wrote:Huomennä on liian myöhä. Koskaan ei ole liian myöhäistä. why can't myöhää be used in the negative sentence, it is also a partitive of an adjective?
Huomenna on liian myöhä seems to appear in Google only as a name of a song. Although it doesn’t sound too bad – the expression; I didn’t listen to the song – I’m not sure if that’s actually proper Finnish.

Huomenna on liian myöhä! means “tomorrow, it will be too late[-as-a-time-of-day]”... which doesn’t really make sense as “tomorrow” is the entire following day; including the early bits in the wee hours and morning.

Huomenna on liian myöhäistä! is more idiomatic, and means it will be too late to do something tomorrow; there is going to be no chance of doing that any more tomorrow; you’re missing your chances if you wait that long.

Similarly...

Koskaan ei ole liian myöhä! means “it is never a too late moment-of-a-day”. Which is optimistic thinking, I guess, if the darkness has already set in and it is three and a half minutes until midnight... but not something you would commonly need to say.

Whereas...

Koskaan ei ole liian myöhäistä means that it will never be too late (to do something important that was discussed earlier.)
garoowood wrote:And when to use myöhäinen and myöhään?
Oli jo myöhäinen ilta. Ulkona raivosi ankara syysmyrsky ja sade piiskasi ikkunoita. Raskaat kolkuttimen jysähdykset, jotka resonoivat ja kaikuivat patinoituneen tammioven paksuissa lankuissa, säpsäyttivät majatalon isännän hereille.

Tulet liian myöhään!” huusi majatalon isäntä oudolle kulkijalle oven läpi. ”Majatalo on jo suljettu.” Mutta samassa ikkuna helähti säpäleiksi ja sisään työntyi haarniskoitu hansikas, joka kurotti kohti salpaa.
znark

Rob A.
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Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by Rob A. » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:42 pm

Jukka Aho wrote:
garoowood wrote:And when to use myöhäinen and myöhään?
Oli jo myöhäinen ilta. Ulkona raivosi ankara syysmyrsky ja sade piiskasi ikkunoita. Raskaat kolkuttimen jysähdykset, jotka resonoivat ja kaikuivat patinoituneen tammioven paksuissa lankuissa, säpsäyttivät majatalon isännän hereille.

Tulet liian myöhään!” huusi majatalon isäntä oudolle kulkijalle oven läpi. ”Majatalo on jo suljettu.” Mutta samassa ikkuna helähti säpäleiksi ja sisään työntyi haarniskoitu hansikas, joka kurotti kohti salpaa.
Nice story....:D

"It was already late evening. Outside raged a fierce autumn storm and rain lashed the windows. The heavy door knocker(s), which [why is jotka in the partitive...???] ...resonated and echoed against .....[in Finnish, apparently the inessive is used where, at least in this instance, English might use, "against"...???] ....the "patinaed" oak door’s thick planks, awoke the innkeeper. [....säpsäyttivät majatalon isännän hereille.....=literally, "stirred, (or maybe startled0, the inn's manager awake..."

“You come too late!”, shouted the innkeeper to the astonished...????.. traveler at door hole. “The inn is already closed.” But in same window ....[clanged splinter??? and into pushed......I was having a bit of trouble here....:D ] ....armoured glove, which reached toward door bolt.

And this story made be recollect this one....which I've heard before in the forum, but couldn't find...[or maybe it was actually at my nightschool class.... :? ] Here it is, in Finnish, as best as I can recall....:D

Oli pimeä ja myrskyinen yö …..Oli koputti ovella!! ...Ovi avaisi!! …Vietsi vilauttoi!! ….Kurkku sivalsi!! Huuto kuului!!! ….......Kurkku voileipä!!

Here's another "late" example:

Hän meni myöhään työssä.="He went to work late."
Hän meni myöhemmin työssä.= "He went to work late."

Assuming I haven't slipped up grammatically on the second one.....these two statements would create very different impressions....at least they do in English..... :wink:

Jukka Aho
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Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by Jukka Aho » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:38 pm

Rob A. wrote:
Jukka Aho wrote:Oli jo myöhäinen ilta. Ulkona raivosi ankara syysmyrsky ja sade piiskasi ikkunoita. Raskaat kolkuttimen jysähdykset, jotka resonoivat ja kaikuivat patinoituneen tammioven paksuissa lankuissa, säpsäyttivät majatalon isännän hereille.

Tulet liian myöhään!” huusi majatalon isäntä oudolle kulkijalle oven läpi. ”Majatalo on jo suljettu.” Mutta samassa ikkuna helähti säpäleiksi ja sisään työntyi haarniskoitu hansikas, joka kurotti kohti salpaa.
"It was already late evening. Outside raged a fierce autumn storm and rain lashed the windows. The heavy door knocker(s), which [why is jotka in the partitive...???]
It seems you left out the word jysähdykset. Add that in and it should explain the word jotka.
Rob A. wrote: ...resonated and echoed against .....[in Finnish, apparently the inessive is used where, at least in this instance, English might use, "against"...???]
I was trying to convey the idea that the very structure of the door resonated and echoed “internally” from the force of pounding/knocking. But there might be a bit of artistic license in there; not sure if I can give any definite answer on how such things should be described. ;)
Rob A. wrote:awoke the innkeeper. [....säpsäyttivät majatalon isännän hereille.....=literally, "stirred, (or maybe startled0, the inn's manager awake..."
“Startled” would be fine.

säpsähtää = to flinch (from some sort of a sudden surprise or shock; unexpected touch or sound)
säpsäyttää = to make someone flinch
Rob A. wrote:“You come too late!”, shouted the innkeeper to the astonished...????.. traveler
Outo does not mean “astonished”...
Rob A. wrote:at door hole.
Oh. Läpi, in old-fashioned usage – and in certain limited, special contexts, such as napinläpi – can also mean “a hole”, but here it means “through”... as in “through the door”.
Rob A. wrote:“The inn is already closed.” But in same
Another pitfall in there. :D Samassa is not only the inessive of sama, the adjective, but also a lexicalized form – an adverb which means roughly “right in/at that [same] moment”. See here for another example.
Rob A. wrote:window ....[clanged splinter??? and into pushed......I was having a bit of trouble here....:D ] ....armoured glove, which reached toward door bolt.
Helähtää is an onomatopoetical word describing something making a sudden, bright sound; somehow musical and broken chord-like. A sound which has a certain kind of “ring” to it, so to speak. In this case, the sound of breaking glass. Säpäleiksi = “into shards”. So the window glass made that sudden, bright sound as it was crashed in and broken into shards: helähti säpäleiksi.
Rob A. wrote:And this story made be recollect this one....which I've heard before in the forum, but couldn't find...[or maybe it was actually at my nightschool class.... :? ] Here it is, in Finnish, as best as I can recall....:D

Oli pimeä ja myrskyinen yö …..Oli koputti ovella!! ...Ovi avaisi!! …Vietsi vilauttoi!! ….Kurkku sivalsi!! Huuto kuului!!! ….......Kurkku voileipä!!
Well, right. ;) Some spelling and other problems in there, though.

Note that if you say kurkku sivalsi, you’re slashing things using your throat/cucumber as a weapon. Which is a refreshing reversal of the original story, I’d say... :D
znark

Jukka Aho
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Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by Jukka Aho » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:54 pm

Rob A. wrote:Here's another "late" example:

Hän meni myöhään työssä.="He went to work late."
Hän meni myöhemmin työssä.= "He went to work late."

Assuming I haven't slipped up grammatically on the second one.....these two statements would create very different impressions....at least they do in English..... :wink:
I assume the latter English phrase should use the word “later”, not “late”? In that case, here are the corrected versions:

Hän meni töihin myöhässä. = “He went to work late.”
Hän meni töihin myöhemmin. = “He went to work later.”
znark

Rob A.
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Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by Rob A. » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:01 am

Jukka Aho wrote:
Rob A. wrote:
Jukka Aho wrote:Oli jo myöhäinen ilta. Ulkona raivosi ankara syysmyrsky ja sade piiskasi ikkunoita. Raskaat kolkuttimen jysähdykset, jotka resonoivat ja kaikuivat patinoituneen tammioven paksuissa lankuissa, säpsäyttivät majatalon isännän hereille.

Tulet liian myöhään!” huusi majatalon isäntä oudolle kulkijalle oven läpi. ”Majatalo on jo suljettu.” Mutta samassa ikkuna helähti säpäleiksi ja sisään työntyi haarniskoitu hansikas, joka kurotti kohti salpaa.
"It was already late evening. Outside raged a fierce autumn storm and rain lashed the windows. The heavy door knocker(s), which [why is jotka in the partitive...???]
It seems you left out the word jysähdykset. Add that in and it should explain the word jotka.
OK...."the heavy doorknocker thumps, which...." "thumps"(noun)=jysähdykset....pl. nom. But I'm still not seeing why it would be partitive... :ohno: .....I'll have to review the partitive rules again....
Jukka Aho wrote:
Rob A. wrote:“You come too late!”, shouted the innkeeper to the astonished...????.. traveler
Outo does not mean “astonished”...
I don't know what I was thinking... :? ..."strange"..."to the strange traveler...."
Jukka Aho wrote:
Rob A. wrote:window ....[clanged splinter??? and into pushed......I was having a bit of trouble here....:D ] ....armoured glove, which reached toward door bolt.
Helähtää is an onomatopoetical word describing something making a sudden, bright sound; somehow musical and broken chord-like. A sound which has a certain kind of “ring” to it, so to speak. In this case, the sound of breaking glass. Säpäleiksi = “into shards”. So the window glass made that sudden, bright sound as it was crashed in and broken into shards: helähti säpäleiksi.
Got it.... :D
Jukka Aho wrote:
Rob A. wrote:And this story made be recollect this one....which I've heard before in the forum, but couldn't find...[or maybe it was actually at my nightschool class.... :? ] Here it is, in Finnish, as best as I can recall....:D

Oli pimeä ja myrskyinen yö …..Oli koputti ovella!! ...Ovi avaisi!! …Vietsi vilauttoi!! ….Kurkku sivalsi!! Huuto kuului!!! ….......Kurkku voileipä!!
Well, right. ;) Some spelling and other problems in there, though.

Note that if you say kurkku sivalsi, you’re slashing things using your throat/cucumber as a weapon. Which is a refreshing reversal of the original story, I’d say... :D
I did "butcher" it a bit....I've been informed that it originally went this way:

Oli synkkä ja myrskyinen yö. Ovi aukeaa, veitsi vilahtaa, kurkku katkeaa, kuuluu huuto... kurkkuvoileipää!!....

However two of these verbs I can't seem to find.....aukeaa I assume that's the 3rd pers. sing form...what would be the infinitive??? .....and vilahtaa ....this appears enough in google that it must be the 3rd pers. sing. for "cuts".....
Jukka Aho wrote:
Rob A. wrote:Here's another "late" example:

Hän meni myöhään työssä.="He went to work late."
Hän meni myöhemmin työssä.= "He went to work late."

Assuming I haven't slipped up grammatically on the second one.....these two statements would create very different impressions....at least they do in English..... :wink:
I assume the latter English phrase should use the word “later”, not “late”? In that case, here are the corrected versions:

Hän meni töihin myöhässä. = “He went to work late.”
Hän meni töihin myöhemmin. = “He went to work later.”
Yes....I meant "later"......Hmmmm..literally: "He went into work in-late." and "He went into work into-later...." En ymmärrän!!....:D..... Why the shift from the inessive to the illative comparative...??... if you are using myöhässä, why not, then, the comparative form of myöhä....myöhempi....?? Or, conversely, if myöhemmin is correct as the comparative form, why would its "base form ...myöhään not be correct????....

Obviously there is some semantic shift there that I have yet to detect....:lol:

silk
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Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by silk » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:20 am

Rob A. wrote:
Oli synkkä ja myrskyinen yö.....
This isn't actually part of the original masterpiece, but it fits well :ochesey:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_was_a_d ... ormy_night
Rob A. wrote:However two of these verbs I can't seem to find.....aukeaa I assume that's the 3rd pers. sing form...what would be the infinitive??? .....and vilahtaa ....this appears enough in google that it must be the 3rd pers. sing. for "cuts".....
The infinitive of aukeaa is aueta, and the infinitive of vilahtaa is vilahtaa, the same as the third person singular.

The translation for vilahtaa... hmmm... :? "To move by fast" or "to dart". Maybe somebody else has a better suggestion.
Last edited by silk on Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Rob A.
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Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by Rob A. » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:44 am

silk wrote:
Rob A. wrote:
Oli synkkä ja myrskyinen yö.....
This isn't actually part of the original masterpiece, but it fits well :ochesey:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_was_a_d ... ormy_night
Thank you for the "intro".... :ochesey: I was just working on a translation of opening lines to that Victorian book..."Paul Clifford".....one of those "double life" specialities the Victorians were so fond of....

Here are the opening lines:

"It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents, except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling along the housetops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the lamps that struggled against the darkness."

And here's my effort...it's taken about an hour....and, I know it's a bit clumsy...but hopefully it's understandable.....:

Oli sankyy ja myrskyinen yö; sade tuli kuin saavista kaatamalla, muuta kuin varman hetkisen aikana, kun tulen rajua puuskaa se oli pysäytänyt, jotka pyyhälsi katujen….(koska Lontoossa on kun meidän näyttämömme olemme), ...helistellämässä ...I made this into a frequentative verb...I don't actually know if it's a Finnish word.......ulkokattojen pitkin, ja ravistellamassa rajusti lampun heikkoja liekkejä, jotka tappelivat synkkyyden vastaan.

OK...any suggestions for clarification or improvement???...:D

[Edit: OK ...I've added a few "corrections".....

Oli synkkä ja myrskyinen yö; sade tuli kuin saavista kaatamalla, paitsi hetkittäin kun raju tuulipuuska puhalsi katuja pitkin….(koska paikkamme on Lontoossa), täristellen kattoja, ja rajusti ravistellen lamppujen heikkoja liekkejä jotka taistelivat synkkyyttä vastaan.
Last edited by Rob A. on Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jukka Aho
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Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by Jukka Aho » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:59 am

Rob A. wrote:
Jukka Aho wrote:It seems you left out the word jysähdykset. Add that in and it should explain the word jotka.
OK...."the heavy doorknocker thumps, which...." "thumps"(noun)=jysähdykset....pl. nom. But I'm still not seeing why it would be partitive... :ohno: .....I'll have to review the partitive rules again....
Well... would it help any if I told you jotka is not the partitive of joka... ;)

(See here for a nice table.)
Rob A. wrote:and vilahtaa ....this appears enough in google that it must be the 3rd pers. sing. for "cuts".....
Not really, see what Silk said. It could also be translated as “to flash by [you/your eyes]” When something vilahtaa, it makes a very swift move; you can only catch a brief glimpse of it because it was so quick. A blink-and-you-miss-it kind of event.

Hiiri vilahti koloonsa.

(I’ll get back to the myöhempi problem later... going to get some sleep now!)
znark

Rob A.
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Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by Rob A. » Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:29 am

Jukka Aho wrote:
Rob A. wrote:
Jukka Aho wrote:It seems you left out the word jysähdykset. Add that in and it should explain the word jotka.
OK...."the heavy doorknocker thumps, which...." "thumps"(noun)=jysähdykset....pl. nom. But I'm still not seeing why it would be partitive... :ohno: .....I'll have to review the partitive rules again....
Well... would it help any if I told you jotka is not the partitive of joka... ;)

(See here for a nice table.)
:lol: ....Yes...OK...Got it!!
Jukka Aho wrote:
Rob A. wrote:and vilahtaa ....this appears enough in google that it must be the 3rd pers. sing. for "cuts".....
Not really, see what Silk said. It could also be translated as “to flash by [you/your eyes]” When something vilahtaa, it makes a very swift move; you can only catch a brief glimpse of it because it was so quick. A blink-and-you-miss-it kind of event.

Hiiri vilahti koloonsa.
OK...I must be getting tired....I kind of got that all "bass ackwards", as they say...:D
Jukka Aho wrote:(I’ll get back to the myöhempi problem later... going to get some sleep now!)
So you actually do sleep....:D You posted at 5:00PM, our time....I'm just going to leave work...:D ...though on Sunday you'll be back to 10 hours ahead....

Jukka Aho
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Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by Jukka Aho » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:18 pm

Rob A. wrote:
Jukka Aho wrote:I assume the latter English phrase should use the word “later”, not “late”? In that case, here are the corrected versions:

Hän meni töihin myöhässä. = “He went to work late.”
Hän meni töihin myöhemmin. = “He went to work later.”
Yes....I meant "later"......Hmmmm..literally: "He went into work in-late." and "He went into work into-later...." En ymmärrän!!....:D..... Why the shift from the inessive to the illative comparative...??
I think the key here is “registering” that myöhässä is a lexicalized form – an adverb – meaning “late” in the sense of “late for a scheduled appointment”, “late for a scheduled time of arrival/appearance/delivery”. It has no other meaning, and it is also not inflected in any other case when used in this sense. Hence, thinking of myöhässä as “the inessive of myöhä” is probably going to lead you astray in so far as “understanding” the word goes. Myöhässä has lexicalized to convey this specific sense of “late” – “late for a scheduled/expected point in time” – to such extent that myöhä is like a different word altogether.

Hän meni tapaamiseen myöhässä.
Hän tuli tapaamisesta myöhässä.
Paketti oli myöhässä.
Apua, olen jo puoli tuntia myöhässä!
Juna lähti matkaan kaksi tuntia myöhässä.
Jos saavut myöhässä, ei asialle enää voi tehdä mitään.
Myöhässä oleva kuljetus seisautti tehtaan.
Rob A. wrote:if you are using myöhässä, why not, then, the comparative form of myöhä....myöhempi....??
Myöhempi means “later” or “late” in the sense “later/late-in-time”, used as an inflecting comparative attribute – in other words, it’s a normal (comparative) adjective attribute. Here’s the first hit out of Google. You might want to take a look at these as well:

Päivämäärän on oltava myöhempi kuin 1. tammikuuta 1900. (source)
Voit myös kerätä bonuspisteitä ja käyttää ne myöhemmän tilauksen yhteydessä. (source)
Myöhempi järistys jätti useita perheitä kodittomiksi ja aiheutti enemmän aineellista vahinkoa kuin ensimmäinen. (source)
Säilytä ohjeet mahdollista myöhempää käyttöä varten. (source)

Note that myöhempi should probably be considered a certain kind of lexicalization as well – a separate word with an independent meaning and not so much a comparative of myöhä.

I think we need to list these different-in-their-meaning “myöhä” words in our arsenal:
  1. myöhä: An expression of time; “late” in sense “late hour of a day”. Used independently of any other words (it’s not an attribute.) On jo myöhä = “It is a late hour [of the day] already.”
  2. myöhemmin: An expression of time; “later” in sense “later-in-time”. Used independently of any other words (it’s not an attribute.) Hän ei ehdi kuulemaan avajaispuhetta, vaan saapuu juhliin vasta myöhemmin.Aion tehdä sen myöhemmin.
  3. myöhäinen: An adjective with the meaning “late in time”, used as an attribute: Oli jo myöhäinen ilta = “It was a late evening already.” Nukahtamista voivat haitata liian myöhäiset iltapäivätorkut ja liian myöhäinen nukkumaanmeno, myöhäinen raskas ateria, alkoholin käyttö tai kahvin juonti. (This is not “late” as “late for something”; just “late [in time}” as in “johnny-come-lately”, “late night”.)
  4. myöhempi: A comparative adjective attribute meaning “later/late” in sense “later-in-time/late-in-time when compared to something else or to the beginning of the referred thing/era/concept”. Applied to things, eras, etc.: Myöhempi tutkimus osoitti, että kaikki aikaisemmat tutkimukset olivat väärässä.Myöhemmällä keskiajalla järjestettiin jousiammuntakilpailuja.Iltakuutta [6 pm] myöhempi aika ei sovi minulle.Katsotaan asiaa uudelleen joskus myöhempänä ajankohtana.
  5. myöhässä: “late” in sense “I’m late for a meeting”, “The train was late.” Just think of it as an adverb which does not inflect and which does not have much anything to do with the word myöhä, as such. (Olen myöhässä. = “I’m late.” Compare to: aikaisessa, oikeassa, väärässä, pinteessä, pulassa, avun tarpeessa, hukassa. They’re all used in similar expressions where you’re in some figurative, abstract “state”, and where the inessive has lexicalized to some degree, taking on a sense that cannot always be directly derived from the nominative of the same word.)
Rob A. wrote:Or, conversely, if myöhemmin is correct as the comparative form, why would its "base form ...myöhään not be correct????
Myöhään is correct and can be used as well; it just does not mean the same thing. Now it’s truly an inflected form of myöhä (item 1 from the above list):

Hän meni töihin myöhään. = “He went to work at a late hour.” (Later than he usually goes, perhaps.)

Hän meni töihin liian myöhään. = “He went to work at too late an hour.” (Probably missed something of which he wasn’t aware in advance.)

Hän saapui paikalle liian myöhään kyetäkseen estämään tilanteen eskaloitumisen. = “He arrived at the scene at too late an hour to be able to prevent the situation from escalating.”

Isällä menee töissä myöhään. = “Dad will have to stay at work till a late hour.”

(The last one – note the adessive – probably deserves a separate discussion thread on its own... ;)
znark

Jukka Aho
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Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by Jukka Aho » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:58 pm

Rob A. wrote:"It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents, except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling along the housetops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the lamps that struggled against the darkness."

And here's my effort...

[...]

Oli synkkä ja myrskyinen yö; sade tuli kuin saavista kaatamalla, paitsi hetkittäin kun raju tuulipuuska puhalsi katuja pitkin….(koska paikkamme on Lontoossa), täristellen kattoja, ja rajusti ravistellen lamppujen heikkoja liekkejä jotka taistelivat synkkyyttä vastaan.
Hey, that’s really quite good! Well done. ;) My corrections:

Oli synkkä ja myrskyinen yö; sadetta [1] tuli kuin saavista kaatamalla, paitsi hetkittäin kun raju tuulenpuuska [2] puhalsi katuja pitkin….(koska tapahtumapaikkamme [3] on Lontoossa), täristellen kattoja, ja rajusti ravistellen lamppujen heikkoja liekkejä jotka taistelivat synkkyyttä vastaan.
  1. Sade should be considered an uncountable mass noun here, similar to vesi. Hence, the partitive.
  2. Tuulenpuuska is the “established” word for “a gust of wind”; the first part of the compound word being in the genitive. (Tuulipuuska would be just as plausible, though, but it isn’t used. There’s not much logic to the formation of compound words as far as this genitive/nominative selection process goes... you’ll just need to learn what people usually use, I guess.)
  3. Tapahtumapaikka is more appropriate for “a scene”. Paikkamme sounds more like “our position”, “our place”.
Rob A. wrote:helistellämässä ...I made this into a frequentative verb...I don't actually know if it's a Finnish word
The word helistellä : helistelemässä is an actual Finnish frequentative verb. However, it means a rather gentle kind of “rattling”, probably with bright and somewhat musical sounds. Think of a baby rattle which has some musical bells inside, making nice sounds, instead of mere dried peas (or whatever) rattling about. (Baby rattle is actually called helistin in Finnish; a “tool” which you use when you want to helistää or helistellä.)

Related word: heläyttää.

Kirkasääninen nuorisokuoro heläytti taivaallisen ihanan laulun. (=they performed the song with a nice bright “ring” to their voices)

Then there’s heleä as well:

Kuoro lauloi heleästi.
Kuoro lauloi heleä-äänisesti.
znark

Rob A.
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Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by Rob A. » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:21 pm

Thanks for the detail, Jukka ....a lot to absorb....
I'll see what questions I can come up with....:D

Jukka Aho
Posts: 5238
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:46 am
Location: Espoo, Finland

Re: How to use Finnish "late" word?

Post by Jukka Aho » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:42 am

Rob A. wrote:Thanks for the detail, Jukka ....a lot to absorb....
I'll see what questions I can come up with....:D
Having constructed that numbered list I can see how this could be a somewhat hairy thing for an English-speaker: the simple word “late” – and sometimes “later” – seems to cover quite a lot of ground all by itself. So if you’re thinking this “through English”, you need to learn to recognize the different types of usages in English as well, even though they don’t necessarily catch the eye as readily as in Finnish. Then again, the funky mutating “myöhä” words are not too different from the English phrasal verbs, some of which change their meaning totally, or at least quite substantially, if you use the wrong preposition with them... while the verb itself stays the same. It’s just something that will sink in with time... or should I say ennemmin tai myöhemmin. ;)
znark


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