Tenses in finnish

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sammy
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Re: Tenses in finnish

Post by sammy » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:39 pm

gallant25 wrote:Terve!
I like to know the difference between present continous,present and future tense in finnish grammar.You can see for example, Minä istun nojatuolissa means I'm sitting in the armchair/I sit in the armchair/I'll sit in the armchair.
Tarvitsen apuasi.
Kiitos!
A short version: there are no verb suffixes in Finnish that are equivalent to those particular tense distinctions. You need to check the context and/or seek for some additional words to find out (or to form) the tense in phrases like that.

Istun (juuri) nyt nojatuolissa - I'm sitting in the armchair (just now)
Istun nojatuolissa - I sit in the armchair
(huomenna/illalla/sitten kun.../etc) istun nojatuolissa - I'll sit in the armchair (tomorrow/in the evening/when...)

You can say tulen istumaan nojatuolissa for future tense, but that's a bit like I will most definitely sit in the armchair, just you wait :wink:

Then again, you have e.g. the future conditional that is formed with a suffix - istunen nojatuolissa, for those occasions when you're not quite sure if it'll happen. Say, maybe the wifey has other plans involving you and the vacuum cleaner... but even that can be alternatively expressed by some extra word. And in spoken finnish, it usually is... like e.g. ehkä/varmaankin istun nojatuolissa... or saatan istua nojatuolissa.

Btw those two are ambiguous, too - they can also mean maybe I am sitting in an armchair... in situations when you're not sure if it's an armchair you're sitting in... but the context is a bit far-fetched & rarely happens, most of us generally know what they're sitting on :)



Re: Tenses in finnish

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Jukka Aho
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Re: Tenses in finnish

Post by Jukka Aho » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:20 pm

sammy wrote:most of us generally know what they're sitting on :)
Except in a dark bathroom...
znark

Rob A.
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Re: Tenses in finnish

Post by Rob A. » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:17 am

gallant25 wrote:Terve!
I like to know the difference between present continous,present and future tense in finnish grammar.You can see for example, Minä istun nojatuolissa means I'm sitting in the armchair/I sit in the armchair/I'll sit in the armchair.
Tarvitsen apuasi.
Kiitos!
Well....it seems in the beginning ...at least in the I-E languages and, I suppose in most languages,...[humans and language needs basically being the same everywhere]... there were two tenses...past and present.... English dealt with the additional verb tenses by adding auxiliary particles... "was", "will", shall", "shall be", "would" , "would be" etc. etc. etc. French created the future tense by adding the present tense of "avoir" ...[modified a bit in the 1st and 2nd person plural]..to the end of the basic infinitive....and Finnish seems to use a mix of suffixes and auxiliaries....

In English you can, of course, creat a future sense by using prsent tense expressions such as "am going" plus the verb infinitive....

I'm not sure yet, though, how to handle, in Finnish, the matter of "aspect"... In English you can say, "I sit", "I am sitting" and "I do sit".....all in the present tense, but each having a different aspect. Some of it is handled with particles such as -pa, etc.....

orbik
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Re: Tenses in finnish

Post by orbik » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:49 am

sammy wrote:Then again, you have e.g. the future conditional that is formed with a suffix - istunen nojatuolissa...
Now you're talking about the potential mood. Explicit future conditional would be like: tulisin istumaan nojatuolissa. But sure, there's a point in that first person present potential - istunen - "I probably sit" - tends to be interpreted as future, because one seldom expresses uncertainty about one's own present condition.

sammy
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Re: Tenses in finnish

Post by sammy » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:55 am

orbik wrote:
sammy wrote:Then again, you have e.g. the future conditional that is formed with a suffix - istunen nojatuolissa...
Now you're talking about the potential mood. Explicit future conditional would be like: tulisin istumaan nojatuolissa. But sure, there's a point in that first person present potential - istunen - "I probably sit" - tends to be interpreted as future, because one seldom expresses uncertainty about one's own present condition.
You're right there :thumbsup: Chief Fluffy Brain think heap simple.

sammy
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Re: Tenses in finnish

Post by sammy » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:22 am

Rob A. wrote:In English you can, of course, creat a future sense by using prsent tense expressions such as "am going" plus the verb infinitive....
Do you mean like I am going to sit in an armchair... this would be something like aion istua nojatuolissa in Finnish (again the exact translation would depend on the context)
Rob A. wrote:I'm not sure yet, though, how to handle, in Finnish, the matter of "aspect"... In English you can say, "I sit", "I am sitting" and "I do sit".....all in the present tense, but each having a different aspect. Some of it is handled with particles such as -pa, etc.....
Once again, it's a question of context and what you wish to express.

A funny thing about some Finnish verbs is how they can be made to express something that, in English, is usually done with phrasal verbs:

Istua -> istuksia (to sit around) - istuksin nojatuolissa
maata -> makoilla or makailla (to lie around) - makoilen sohvalla
kulkea -> kuljeksia, kuljeskella (to walk around) - kuljeksin kaupungilla

That reminds me - if you think Finnish always takes a lot of words to express something, try translating kuljeskelisinkohan

("I wonder if I should walk around without any particular destination" :) )

Jukka Aho
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Re: Tenses in finnish

Post by Jukka Aho » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:22 pm

Rob A. wrote:I'm not sure yet, though, how to handle, in Finnish, the matter of "aspect"... In English you can say, "I sit", "I am sitting" and "I do sit".....all in the present tense, but each having a different aspect. Some of it is handled with particles such as -pa, etc.....
You start out with istun. You could also say minä istun but as Finnish has those personal markers “built-in” to the verbs, explicitly “repeating” the subject of the sentence, minä, is superfluous, in a way. It is not wrong as such, though – and it doesn’t even sound particularly clumsy, so there’s no need to avoid it for that reason – but it is usually just a waste of time and typing effort... unless you need to include that personal pronoun for some additional emphasis, for example.

Now, whether istun means “I sit”, “I am sitting”, or “I will sit” is all based on contextual clues, as already mentioned above. For example, what has been discussed immediately before may anchor the currently studied sentence firmly into a certain English tense, even though there might not necessarily be enough information for making that judgment when the sentence is considered alone, out of the context.

To continue on the bathroom theme, often the situation itself may provide sufficient clues, just because all the other interpretations would be implausible:

— Istutko vessassa?
— Istun.

This is a casual conversation, perhaps between a wife and a husband. With no further clues, it is pretty obvious – given the subject matter – that this kind of a discussion was probably conducted in the confines of someone’s private home or some other comparable, relatively private space.

It is rather unlikely that this would be an inquiry about habitual customs or tendencies (“Do you, at times, sit in the bathroom [on the toilet]?” “I do.”). It is equally unlikely that this inquiry would concern someone’s future plans or desires (“Will you sit / be sitting in the bathroom [on the toilet]?” “I will.”). The only plausible interpretation, then – as we have no other clues – is that this must be about the present continuous tense: “Are you sitting in the bathroom [on the toilet] [right at this moment, as we speak]?” “Yes, I am.” You don’t really need anything more concrete to come to that conclusion – or if you think you do, you’re theorizing about things a bit too much. ;)

But there are situations where mere istun would be too ambiguous, of course, or where you just want to make sure that the other party gets your point. When you have that kind of a situation in your hands, you would add clarifying words and expressions such as huomenna, illalla, juuri nyt, normaalisti, yleensä, tällä hetkellä, viiden minuutin kuluttua, aina, koskaan, milloinkaan, ensi vuonna, kun kesä tulee, heti kun olen valmis etc.

• • •

As for convincing someone “I do sit!”, or quarreling about something “I am sitting, too!” – that’s the territory of clitics such as -han and -pa(s).

1: -han

Istun tällä hetkellä Eiffel-tornin ravintolassa.
Nyt huijaat. Et varmasti istu!
Istunhan!

— I’m sitting, at this very moment, in the restaurant on Eiffel Tower.
— You’re kidding me. I’m sure you aren’t!
— But I am! [Of course I am; you’re just being silly for trying to deny the facts!]

2: -pa(s)

Et sitten istu tuohon nojatuoliin. Se on varattu minulle.
Istunpas.

— You’re not going to sit on that armchair. It’s reserved for me.
— I am, too. [You can’t tell me around. I’m going to do whatever I want. Nyah nyah!]
znark

Rob A.
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Re: Tenses in finnish

Post by Rob A. » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:03 pm

sammy wrote:
Rob A. wrote:In English you can, of course, creat a future sense by using prsent tense expressions such as "am going" plus the verb infinitive....
Do you mean like I am going to sit in an armchair... this would be something like aion istua nojatuolissa in Finnish (again the exact translation would depend on the context)
Yes...I see.... The distinction seems to be between intent ("to be going to") and definiteness ("will").

I found this link which discusses the English Simple Future tense... According to the link, the simple future in English takes these two forms....and is somewhat interchangeable....

So I assume I would be right in thinking, then, that , "Aion istua... would be the best choice if you are trying to convey an intent to do something... versus, say, Huomenna minä istun.......conveying a more definite action that you will be taking??...:D

[Aside: Back in the day...probably at the Grade 6 grammar level.... I remember being taught the "proper" usage of "shall" and "will" as a future tense auxiliary..... "shall" is supposed to be used with "I" and "we"; and "will" with the rest, unless you really want to emphasize the occurrence of some future action, then you are supposed to switch the words around, "will" with I" and we"; "shall" with the others..... but even back then I remember getting the impression the teacher thought it was a "lost cause"....... and, according to wiki:

In modern English the interchangeable use of shall and will is an acceptable part of standard British and US English.

Here are a couple of links on the subject of "shall/will":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shall_and_will

http://www.grammarmudge.cityslide.com/a ... 3/8913.htm ]

....I would say it is most common to use, "will", in all instances, most of the time, but sometimes, "shall", is a handy word....and it has a bit of a "shock" value, making whatever you are saying more emphatic....
sammy wrote:
Rob A. wrote:I'm not sure yet, though, how to handle, in Finnish, the matter of "aspect"... In English you can say, "I sit", "I am sitting" and "I do sit".....all in the present tense, but each having a different aspect. Some of it is handled with particles such as -pa, etc.....
Once again, it's a question of context and what you wish to express.

A funny thing about some Finnish verbs is how they can be made to express something that, in English, is usually done with phrasal verbs:

Istua -> istuksia (to sit around) - istuksin nojatuolissa
maata -> makoilla or makailla (to lie around) - makoilen sohvalla
kulkea -> kuljeksia, kuljeskella (to walk around) - kuljeksin kaupungilla
Merci beaucoup....:D...
sammy wrote:That reminds me - if you think Finnish always takes a lot of words to express something, try translating kuljeskelisinkohan

("I wonder if I should walk around without any particular destination" :) )
Hmmmm... kuljeskelisin....3rd person conditional present....ko...question clitic.....han...with "ko" to express deliberation....:D :D

How about ..."Ihmettelen(ko) jos kuljeskelisithan siis useasti........ :wink:

...I'm sure, though, this is not quite correct grammatically... :ohno:
Last edited by Rob A. on Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

Rob A.
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Re: Tenses in finnish

Post by Rob A. » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:17 pm

Thanks again for a thorough explanation...always appreciated... :thumbsup:
Jukka Aho wrote:
Rob A. wrote:I'm not sure yet, though, how to handle, in Finnish, the matter of "aspect"... In English you can say, "I sit", "I am sitting" and "I do sit".....all in the present tense, but each having a different aspect. Some of it is handled with particles such as -pa, etc.....
You start out with istun. You could also say minä istun but as Finnish has those personal markers “built-in” to the verbs, explicitly “repeating” the subject of the sentence, minä, is superfluous, in a way. It is not wrong as such, though – and it doesn’t even sound particularly clumsy, so there’s no need to avoid it for that reason – but it is usually just a waste of time and typing effort... unless you need to include that personal pronoun for some additional emphasis, for example.
Understood....I think in many languages verbs carry out this "duty"....English definitely not... :D In Latin the subject pronouns are seldom used except for emphasis, as in Finnish, but I get the impression, though, that if they really aren't needed, it would be considered "awkward" to actually use them....though my level in Latin is still pretty elelmentary...

French, too, could "almost" not use these pronouns, but, of course, the "problem" with modern French is the rather broad "disconnect" between spelling and pronunciation... [It wasn't always this way....in much earlier times, consistent with its Latin heritage, all letters were pronounced....] :D


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