The 'I Hate Finnish' Thread

[davids09]

I apologize. This is not a thread for constructive discourse or personal betterment.
No, this is a thread for us sorry suckers who tried our hands at the Finnish language
and failed. This is a thread for whiners. If you are one such person and if you have
the humility to confess to your own failures; if you have not enough stubborn pride to
plow ahead with a fruitless, perplexing language, please, post here. Let me know that I
am not the only one.

I have studied many languages to varying degrees of fluency. French, Spanish, Swedish,
Japanese, and Mandarin I have all become fairly competent in. Nothing, however,
prepared me for the enigma that is Finnish

The various verb and noun endings seem almost infinite, the combinations numbering in
the hundreds, but this is not the reason why Finnish is hard. The
sentences are a mess, but this not the reason why Finnish is hard. There are a
minimum of two words for every meaning, formal Finnish and casual Finnish, oftentimes many
more than two, and using the wrong one at the wrong time will not result in awkward
speech like mixing an Anglo-Saxon or Latin-based word in English, but rather, complete
incomprehension; but even this is not the reason why I find Finnish so hard.

After months of thinking about it, the reason why I find Finnish so difficult is not the
complex grammar or the massive list of vocabulary -- it is how Finnish is spoken.

I cannot identify word boundaries. This is a subtle point that most language learners
overlook because it comes to us naturally. "Je m'appelle Francois", to hear this spoken
in French is not difficult. Even a man who knows no French can hear the word
boundaries, and by that, I mean, even if he does not know what "je" or "m'appelle"
means, he can identify them as words.

With Finnish, however, words blend into one another and sounds, very important sounds,
get stifled under the breath of speakers who can mysteriously hear through all the
mumbling. I have listened to hundreds upon hundreds of hours of Finnish radio.
Literally, I am not exaggerating this claim one bit. I have been listening to Finnish
news radio nearly everyday for two or three years. And even after all that time and
effort I still can only make out a few words per day. That's right, a few words. Not
sentences, not excerpts: mere words. I have listened to Japanese and Mandarin news
radio for a fraction of that amount and can occasionally pick out sentences and can get
the gist of what is being said overall. Not so with Finnish. With Finnish, I am almost as
clueless as the day I started learning the language, so many years ago.

Anyone else find him or herself mired in the linguistic morass that some call Finnish?
Feel free to talk about it here. I suppose, too, if you have some piece of stellar
advice that will help the rest of us overcome our hurdles with Finnish, feel free to
share those too. After all, we've sunk so much time into this thankless language so
far, why not continue ahead like a beaten mule?

[tuulen]

Ah, but what keeps us coming back is the uniqueness of the Finnish language, as there is no substitute and we crave it!

As beginners we are told that the first syllable of a word gets the primary stress, but native speakers are not beginners, etc.

Hang in there!

[Rob A.]

Well...I can't say I agree with you....I don't seem to have trouble with "word boundaries"...but there are difficulties....the shape-shifting nature of Finnish words isn't easy and the vocabulary seems to take a fair bit of time to build up, but....If that's your view, that's your view ....

I cannot identify word boundaries. This is a subtle point that most language learners
overlook because it comes to us naturally. "Je m'appelle Francois", to hear this spoken
in French is not difficult. Even a man who knows no French can hear the word
boundaries, and by that, I mean, even if he does not know what "je" or "m'appelle"
means, he can identify them as words.

What's so difficult about: Minun nimeni on...Francois.....??? Or maybe a variation such as, Mun nimi on.... ... the word boundaries seem clear....

As for French...French is full of elisions... Many of those forms I just had to learn as set phrases....Qu'est-ce que c'est?....anything but clear word boundaries...

Qu'est-ce que c'est?, literally means, "What is it that it is?"...Hmmmmm....

And so many letters in French that are not pronounced.... At least in Finnish, ALL...or virtually all.... letters are pronounced..... And only a few of the letters are real tongue-twisters for an English speaker....

For me it's the ö and the y.... yöpöytä. Or an even tougher word, höyryjyrä....

[Tuonelan Joutsen]

I have been listening to Finnish news radio nearly everyday for two or three years. And even after all that time and effort I still can only make out a few words per day. That's right, a few words. Not sentences, not excerpts: mere words.

Even with Selkouutiset?

I have to say that listening comprehension is definitely the hardest thing for me as well, but in my case it's because I'm self-taught (mostly out of books). I can only have a successful conversation if the other person really goes out of their way to make sure it's simple enough for me to understand. (And if they do most of the talking, but that might just be my fault because I'm a terrible conversationalist even in English…)

One thing I really want to try is to find Finnish TV programs or videos with subtitles in Finnish (e.g. closed captions for the hearing impaired), since my problem when watching things is often "what are they even saying?" (When I started studying Welsh in school last fall, I found one Welsh-language TV show online that you can watch with English or Welsh subtitles, so I would watch it with the Welsh subtitles first and then English, and eventually I stopped having to bother with the English subtitles. I can't understand it with no subtitles at all yet, though. Anyway, I think this strategy would help me a lot in Finnish as well.)

Also, the only reason I know more than nothing (but still almost nothing) about puhekieli is Kiroileva siili…:lol:

[Rosamunda]

Listening comprehension is hard, in any language, but listening to the radio is so much harder than listening to the TV or a film or talking face to face with someone because there are no visual clues, not even facial expressions. Also, I assume you are not living in Finland so you are probably not familiar with many of the topics on the radio (eg blue-green algae spreading along the coastline in summer).

Watching Finnish DVDs with Finnish subtitles (as mentioned above) is a good idea. Another thing you could do is read YLE news in English BEFORE you listen to the radio news so you are at least familiar with the gist of the news when you listen to the Finnish version. Often I listen to the English news on YLE Mondo before or after I listen to Selkouutiset Another thing which helps some people is note-taking while listening. Every time you recognise a word write it down. I find it helps me to focus while I'm listening, and if you then listen to the same programme a second time, your "random" notes can help you to build up a picture.

But I agree with Rob A. I don't think the word boundaries are any harder than in other languages. Since the stress is ALWAYS on the first syllable I guess the boundaries should be clearer than in other languages (is that logical?). It could be that the syllable-timing and lack of intonation makes it harder though, especially when spoken at normal speed.

Regular radio newsreaders do speak very fast and some of them are very hard to understand. Maybe you should try selkouutiset or TV newscasts instead.

[AldenG]

And you don't need expensive fancy equipment to watch Finnish DVD's any more.

Many 30-40 dollar DVD players can easily be reset with a button sequence on the remote to enable play of all regions on US NTSC televisions. (Plus a few of the movies are published multi-region to begin with.)

Some brands don't do that, such as Sony, but many others do. At the moment we have mostly Samsung at home. Somewhere there is an old thread about this. First you see what models are currently available (locally or online), then you use Google to find a key sequence for one of them, then you go out and buy it. I've helped several friends do this who order Euro or Japanese DVDs.

There are places that charge a few hundred to sell you one where that's all they've done.

When Jukka gets back from vacation he probably has the right sites and terms at his fingertips.

Listening while you read is extremely helpful.

[Hee]

Listening to hundreds of hours of radio will not help anything if you do not understand how stress, rhythm and intonation in Finnish language work and make a big effort to 'tune' your ear and brain to it. Compared to English it will not be second nature and it'll require actual work and effort.

Best way to do this is tuning your ear through watching Finnish tv/dvd (maybe watch with English subtitles first so you comprehend what is happening) with Finnish subtitles. Watch it more than once. Watch it 5 times over. And then you still need to be studying while doing this. You can also read books together along with the audio reading of it to achieve this.

Complaining that you were listening to the radio and it didn't help is very unfair. It needs to go hand-in-hand with regular study including learning typical words, forms verbs will tend to appear in, and phrases often found on radio for talking about politics, weather, etc. You can record a short segment of the radio - 15mins and discuss it in Finnish with your friends/tutor and get them to help you understand. And keep doing this.

If you do those things daily along with daily study you will be fluent. Give Finnish a chance.

[CatNip]

If you have TV and digital box, many of the YLE TV programs are subtitled in Finnish.

Language selection must be set as Dutch, if you want the Finnish subtitles.

The daily list of subtitled programs: http://yle.fi/ohjelmaopas/tekstitys/


Btw, today there is an interesting documentary about Finnish immigrant in Toivola, Michigan/US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toivola,_Michigan

20.00, TV1 Tosi tarina: Amerikan Jenny
Jingo Viitala on syntynyt Toivolassa Michiganissa ja asustelee yksin kotikylänsä laitamilla. Jingo sanoo olevansa ainoa suomenkielinen hillbillylaulaja ja kajauttaa englanniksi Kulkurin valssin. O: Erkki Määttänen.

[Jukka Aho]

And you don't need expensive fancy equipment to watch Finnish DVD's any more.

Many 30-40 dollar DVD players can easily be reset with a button sequence on the remote to enable play of all regions on US NTSC televisions. [...] Somewhere there is an old thread about this. First you see what models are currently available (locally or online), then you use Google to find a key sequence for one of them, then you go out and buy it. I've helped several friends do this who order Euro or Japanese DVDs.

Here’s a couple of old discussion threads about that:

• Region coding
• Region hacks

Alternatively, you can watch DVDs from a foreign region using the DVD-ROM drive on your PC. There are software-based DVD players, such as VLC, which ignore region coding on older, so-called RPC-1 DVD-ROM drives. If the drive is new enough to feature locked-down RPC-2 firmware, there are also solutions based on flashing a new, hacked firmware on those, with the region limitations removed.

Or you could just buy a cheap DVD-ROM drive and dedicate it for viewing DVDs from a foreign region... (even without applying any hacks, they allow changing the region a few times as you see fit before permanently locking it down.)

[Rob A.]

...Or you could just buy a cheap DVD-ROM drive and dedicate it for viewing DVDs from a foreign region... (even without applying any hacks, they allow changing the region a few times as you see fit before permanently locking it down.)

For us hardware klutzes, does that mean you can "wire" the DVD-ROM into the TV set?? If so, I suppose that would mean you can only view the disc...no pausing, re-winding, fast-forwarding, ewtc.?? I have a Toshiba HDMI, purchased in June 2010, and a Panasonic ??27 or 47 ?? ...purchased in 2004...both are clearly marked for region 1.... I haven't found any "unlock codes" yet...

[Jukka Aho]

...Or you could just buy a cheap DVD-ROM drive and dedicate it for viewing DVDs from a foreign region... (even without applying any hacks, they allow changing the region a few times as you see fit before permanently locking it down.)

For us hardware klutzes, does that mean you can "wire" the DVD-ROM into the TV set??

What I meant was that you could watch DVDs on your computer using a software-based DVD player application, such as WinDVD or PowerDVD... or the free VLC media player. And, maybe buy another, dedicated DVD-ROM drive — in addition to the one that likely came with your computer — solely for the purpose of viewing region-locked Region 2 (Europe/Middle-East/Japan) discs.

Computer DVD-ROM drives allow changing their “native” region a couple of times before the chosen region setting becomes “set in stone” and can no longer be altered (well, at least not officially ;)... so you could simply set the new drive to Region 2, once, and leave it that way... and then use your regular DVD-ROM drive for R1 discs. (Or if you never intend to watch R1 discs on your computer, maybe you would just want to set your regular drive to R2.)

But that’s only if you’re playing by the “rules”... There are numerous guides on the web on how to easily hack various PC DVD-ROM drives region-free.

• • •

DVD releases of Finnish movies and TV shows may not necessarily have any region restrictions to begin with, though. If that’s the case, such disc will play in any player or in any computer DVD drive... possible PAL/NTSC issues notwithstanding.

(Region codes are there on popular movie releases mainly because the big Hollywood studios want to keep their home video release schedules, pricing structure, and distributors separate for different regions. There’s little benefit a Finnish production company would gain from any region restrictions and in many cases it would be downright harmful to their business unless it is something that gets distributed in a big way, so why bother...)

I have a Toshiba HDMI, purchased in June 2010, and a Panasonic ??27 or 47 ?? ...purchased in 2004...both are clearly marked for region 1.... I haven't found any "unlock codes" yet...

Maybe there’s some way to unlock those but you’d need to provide the exact model designation...

[AldenG]

DVD releases of Finnish movies and TV shows may not necessarily have any region restrictions to begin with, though. If that’s the case, such disc will play in any player or in any computer DVD drive... possible PAL/NTSC issues notwithstanding.

(Region codes are there on popular movie releases mainly because the big Hollywood studios want to keep their home video release schedules, pricing structure, and distributors separate for different regions. There’s little benefit a Finnish production company would gain from any region restrictions and in many cases it would be downright harmful to their business unless it is something that gets distributed in a big way, so why bother...)

I agree. I've found the bigger issue is making sure that what you buy has subtitles if you want them. It's not hard in a store, because they always (or almost always?) say on the jacket. But if you're buying online, I'm not sure subtitling will be properly identified.

The best deal is usually a TV series, but they are the most likely not to have subtitles. (And if they do, they will only be in Finnish -- and maybe Swedish -- but from what you say, David, that's what you want anyway.) Ironically, the one series where I would have benefited from them is the one that doesn't have them: Kotikatu. The language is not complicated but both the sound quality and the teenage diction leave a lot to be desired.

The region thing IS a bit perplexing. Some Finnish-origin film/program DVD's actually DO have a region code. I always assumed it had to do with the union contract for the actors. THEY may only have given permission for regional distribution at the original rate of payment, and a new contract might be needed for wider distribution. Just a guess on my part, though. You'd think they'd prefer something at the original rate over nothing at a higher but never-agreed world-market rate. In the case of old material, it may have been negotiated in the age of VHS or even earlier.

[AldenG]

I have a Toshiba HDMI, purchased in June 2010, and a Panasonic ??27 or 47 ?? ...purchased in 2004...both are clearly marked for region 1.... I haven't found any "unlock codes" yet...

When you say Toshiba HDMI, do you mean a regular DVD player that can interpolate up to HD and accept an HDMI cable? Because the actual HD players (Blu-Ray, mostly, nowadays), conspicuously lack the ability to change region. So you can spare yourself the trouble of hunting. I think that was part of the manufacturing license.

The other day I noticed that ordinary DVD players are disappearing from Walmart. The selection last week was about 1/4 of what it was the last time we had this discussion. So if you're serious and we don't find codes for your current players, you might want to try to find a recodable one while they're still on the shelves. Eventually it will all be non-recodable Blu-Ray players, since they can play regular DVDs -- but only with the original region restriction, I think.

[interleukin]

I'm joining this thread quite late, but I just have to write that I find it strange that the OP has problems with distinguishing words in Finnish, and gives French as an example of a language where this is easy! I have had the complete opposite experience. When first moving to France, I just heard flowing waves of letters instead of a language, even the names of people in my surroundings were just strange clusters of sounds to me at first. In Finnish, I may not understand everything, but it is very clear to me what sounds are being made and how they fit together.

I guess it all depends on your own background.

[Jukka Aho]

The region thing IS a bit perplexing. Some Finnish-origin film/program DVD's actually DO have a region code.

I guess the most straightforward way to deal with these things as a beginner is just to bite the bullet and buy the DVD you’re wanting to watch. If you then find out you can’t actually view it (due to a region restriction of some sort, or a PAL/NTSC compatibility issue, or whatever), solve that problem as a separate step. It is a lot easier to test out different things and setups when you actually have the disc in your possession...

Since North America gets lots of immigrants from all abroad the world, there are also specialist electronics stores catering for the expat market. They have expertise on these matters and can surely sell a workable (PAL/NTSC compatible, region-free, etc.) solution if someone doesn’t feel quite technically savvy enough to resolve the problem themselves.

I always assumed it had to do with the union contract for the actors. THEY may only have given permission for regional distribution at the original rate of payment, and a new contract might be needed for wider distribution. Just a guess on my part, though. You'd think they'd prefer something at the original rate over nothing at a higher but never-agreed world-market rate. In the case of old material, it may have been negotiated in the age of VHS or even earlier.

I know nothing about the contracts of Finnish TV/movie actors but my gut feeling is they’re significantly less unionized and organized than Hollywood, or at least hold much less negotiation power, even if adjusted for the local context. Then again, it’s hard to say. But acting, or scriptwriting, or movie/TV production in general, isn’t much of an “industry” here... in the sense it is over there.