'daughter/son of X': case?

[Nikama]

Hei!

I'm only just starting out with Finnish. I'm wondering what case is used for 'X' in 'daughter of X' or 'son of X'. Genitive? Partitive? ...?

Does it make a difference whether X is a person's name or a thing? How would you say 'daughter of the sea' or 'son of the land'?

Kiitos!

[Jukka Aho]

Hei!

I'm only just starting out with Finnish. I'm wondering what case is used for 'X' in 'daughter of X' or 'son of X'. Genitive? Partitive? ...?

Genitive. But the order is reversed: X:n tytär, X:n poika. (As is often the case in Finnish, you can use alternative word orders, such as Tytär X:n, but they sound poetic/archaic/biblical or add a peculiar emphasis.)

Does it make a difference whether X is a person's name or a thing?

Nope. Proper names are inflected just the same way as any noun.

Some gotchas for special cases:

• If it’s a foreign word or name which ends in a consonant, you tack a “binding vowel” i at the end to make it easier to add the case ending (and pronounce it): Jamesin, Smithin, Michaelin, New Yorkin, Bostonin...
• If it’s a foreign word with a silent consonant at the end (which is also not typical for Finnish words) you add the case ending according to the actual pronunciation but separate it from the word with an apostrophe: Calais’n (pronounced [kalɛːn]).
• If it’s an acronym which is typically spelled out letter by letter, or a single letter, you add the case ending using the colon: CIA:n, FBI:n, X:n, Y:n, Z:n. (You need to imagine the letters being spelled out the same way as a native speaker would pronounce the alphabet. See here and here as well.)
• Acronyms which are pronounced as words don’t get the colon treatment: NATOn, UNICEFin, ... (But there’s a tendency of treating pronounceable common acronyms as “words”, anyway, so you also see them written as Naton, Unicefin, etc.)

All examples above use the genitive. But things generally work the same way with any grammatical case: Jamesista, CIA:lle, X:ään, Calais’ssa, New Yorkiin...

How would you say 'daughter of the sea' or 'son of the land'?

meren tytär, maan poika

[Upphew]

Hei!

I'm only just starting out with Finnish. I'm wondering what case is used for 'X' in 'daughter of X' or 'son of X'. Genitive? Partitive? ...?

Does it make a difference whether X is a person's name or a thing? How would you say 'daughter of the sea' or 'son of the land'?

Kiitos!

X's son vs. son of X. In Finnish tytär meren tai poika maan sounds an order of magnitude more epic compared to meren tytär tai maan poika than the same difference in English.

[jahasjahas]

In Finnish tytär meren tai poika maan sounds an order of magnitude more epic compared to meren tytär tai maan poika than the same difference in English.

If OP is just starting their language studies, I think it's safer to say: don't say "tytär meren" unless you're writing a poem. Or even better: don't even think of that option, you'll only get confused.

[AldenG]

There's no "bin Salonen" if that's what you were hoping. For Finland Swedes, there were names like "af Silfverberg," akin to von Beethoven, but they refer to places rather than parentage.

Someone put up a scam hiring site a couple of years back in the name of Yrjöntytär Construction, a comical name meaning George's daughter and sounding like it was translated from Icelandic (reasonable in Iceland but quite ridiculous in Finnish). At one time there were names like Simonpoika, which you could still hear as informal descriptive appellations in the countryside today, but again that's the plain old genitive (possessive) that Jukka was talking about.

[jahasjahas]

At one time there were names like Simonpoika, which you could still hear as informal descriptive appellations in the countryside today

I always check out the weird names people give their kids in Helsingin Sanomat's Sunday issue. You still see a few Simonpoikas or Matinpoikas (as a second or third name, obviously), but it's pretty rare.

[Nikama]

Thanks a lot, everyone.

I'm learning more than I asked for. Do keep the discussion going if there's any more interesting aspects to this...

And Jukka, thanks for the overview of special genitive forms... good to know. (So, Finns pronounce 'CIA' with the Finnish letter names -- despite it being a well-known English name? )

Enjoy your weekends.

[Jukka Aho]

At one time there were names like Simonpoika, which you could still hear as informal descriptive appellations in the countryside today, but again that's the plain old genitive (possessive) that Jukka was talking about.

As you know (but the OP might not), in everyday language (spoken vernacular) there’s the pattern “Familyname’s Firstname”, which is often used when referring to a person in an informal tone, but with their full name (usually in their absence.)

In this usage, Sauli Niinistö becomes Niinistön Sauli, Pertti Virtanen becomes Virtasen Pertti, etc.

Since especially many western Finland surnames originally referred to a place (typically a farm house known by a certain name), you can (to some degree) compare them to the German “von” names, especially when converted into the above-mentioned genitive format. An even closer comparison could be made to the old English names, such as “Robin of Loxley”. The Firstname is “from” the Surname place (or family, in modern contexts) by the virtue of being the “property” of that place — expressed with the genitive case.

[Jukka Aho]

And Jukka, thanks for the overview of special genitive forms... good to know. (So, Finns pronounce 'CIA' with the Finnish letter names -- despite it being a well-known English name? )

Yes. Generally speaking, at least.

It would be strange and awkward if you had, say, a Finnish sentence listing three different foreign security agencies from three different countries, and you had to pronounce the letters according to the language of origin for each.

[Upphew]

(So, Finns pronounce 'CIA' with the Finnish letter names -- despite it being a well-known English name? )

Finns tend to pronounce what is written.
Nothing like this in Finnish: http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/gswithenbank/funnyeng.htm