Requesting expat views on job search support

[Oye]

Hi there,
I am in need of the subjective advice from expats I don't know personally, so to start of thanks to everybody who will share there own thoughts.

The thing is, I've been working a lot with HR (mainly HRD and recruitment) and career counselling/ job search coaching in Finland, also assisting international people (incl. refugees) to find their place in our competitive labour market (and consulting employers in how to recruit and induct also people without Finnish skills to their work force). So I get a lot of enquiries of how to score a job here. I am happy to give a few pointers and ideas, happy to help. But often acquaintances want more than that, which takes a lot of my time, and I am also using my professional expertise. I understand their need and urgency, and usually I find it easy to help people out as the most expats that approach me really have a very inefficient and non-Finnish way of doing it. On the other hand, it doesn't feel right to "give away" expertise for free, especially when I do not have too much spare time.

So, I have been thinking about registering a business in order to offer the job search coaching for expats professionally. My aim would not be to get rich on this, but to put some value on something that actually does require expertise, and to gain something from all the time I invest as well.

1) Is this an offending idea? I'd request people, who are in need of work in order to get money, to pay...

2) Do you think there would be a demand for this kind of service? Would you need it (have needed it when you first arrived), or do you know of anyone who'd be willing to pay for this support? (not looking for customers now , just want the opinions)

3) What would you be willing to pay for the assistance?
If I don't know a person at all, I usually need 1,5-2hrs to the initial meeting in order to be able to give some real value to the job seeker, then possible a 1hr check up later (analysis of what have been tried, improving cover letters/CVs, strategy and preparations for a certain employer, preparations for an interview, contracts and employee rights). I've been thinking that a 2hr session should be about 50e, 1hr about 30e, in order for me to get anything out of this after having paid tax, employer fees such as mandatory pension and insurance fees. How does it sound?

To clarify what I could offer:
(the starting point is always the job seeker, his/her aim and expertise):
- A check to the way the person looks for a job: what more can be done/ should be changed in the way of doing it. If needed, a look into what Finnish employers typically expect from their applicants and employees (that is, who is employable?).
- the strengths of the person (from the perspective of the Finnish labour market), how and where to market these/where could these be useful.
- different channels to apply for jobs (which ones are pretty good for non-Finns as well), how to use on line applications successfully, how and who to call, walk in behaviour
- always included: listing potential employers and having a clear idea on how to proceed.
- Check of resume and cover letter
- Preparation for interviews, possibly aptitude tests, the recruitment process overall

I can do most of the common fields. If a person would be looking for a job in a field I don't know at all, I'd obviously say that free of charge.

[Adrian42]

1) Is this an offending idea? I'd request people, who are in need of work in order to get money, to pay...

2) Do you think there would be a demand for this kind of service? Would you need it (have needed it when you first arrived), or do you know of anyone who'd be willing to pay for this support? (not looking for customers now , just want the opinions)

3) What would you be willing to pay for the assistance?
If I don't know a person at all, I usually need 1,5-2hrs to the initial meeting in order to be able to give some real value to the job seeker, then possible a 1hr check up later (analysis of what have been tried, improving cover letters/CVs, strategy and preparations for a certain employer, preparations for an interview, contracts and employee rights). I've been thinking that a 2hr session should be about 50e, 1hr about 30e, in order for me to get anything out of this after having paid tax, employer fees such as mandatory pension and insurance fees. How does it sound?

To be honest, your prices sound too cheap for taking your services seriously (buying 2h of cleaning services for an apartment costs more than what you want to charge).

The main question is what your target group would be.

Looking at the quite frequent posts here in this forum, I would roughly categorize the people as follows:
1. does not speak Finnish or Swedish, looking for a job in IT
2. does not speak Finnish or Swedish, university degree or good education in a non-IT field, needs a job immediately
3. does not speak Finnish or Swedish, no qualifications at all, needs a job immediately

If you know the Finnish IT job market well, I definitely see how someone from 1. could benefit from your services.

But what will you do with people in 2. or even 3.? Do you have any advice substantially better than "Work hard on learning Finnish and come back in a year."? The answer to your first question depends on that.

[BlackCountry]

I would certainly pay for a little help

[rinso]

I agree with Adrian that it looks cheap for professional coaching.
On the other hand most of your clients probably have very little money to spare.
And without a reputation others might not want to pay professional rates.

[alexander.pitt1990]

Hey, i'm an international student who is job hunting.

If a company existed that could help me with finding a job, i'd be happy to pay for it if it was guaranteed. i.e "if we don't find you a job you don't pay."

I think you'd have alot of students with zero finnish/swedish language skills asking for help finding a job. Just look at what's posted every day "I need a job help, Urgently need advice etc..."

Seems like alot of work on your behalf for just 50 Euros, but it's a good price on my end.

[rinso]

i'd be happy to pay for it if it was guaranteed. i.e "if we don't find you a job you don't pay."

That guarantee is very tricky.
- A job within ..... weeks/ months?
- Does the candidate follows the instructions?
- Is the candidate employable at all?
And you expect results after only a few hours counseling?

I know that outplacement bureaus can coach you till you find a job for a fixed price (but not for €50,-) but no money back guarantee.

[Oye]

Good feedback, thanks, and please keep it going. More views needed.

To be honest, your prices sound too cheap for taking your services seriously (buying 2h of cleaning services for an apartment costs more than what you want to charge).

Makes me laugh, as that really was a point I never even thought of (as people typically expect this for free). Thank you! I nsure eed to think about that, but as my main income comes from something else, I wasn't into making a lot of money, just some compensation for helping out. And I was thinking of how low could I go as the clients would not be in position of a lot of money but still be able to justify myself my use of time.

Btw, people who buy this service would not be able to get tax benefits as they do when they buy cleaning services. Cleaners also have to invest in materials, I wouldn't have to do that. I wasn't even planning on advertising or anything...

The main question is what your target group would be.

You had a good categorisation there. And yes, all of those (but the IT depends a little on what we are talking about. When I see a persons CV and hear what they want, I can say if I have anything to give or not.)

But what will you do with people in 2. or even 3.? Do you have any advice substantially better than "Work hard on learning Finnish and come back in a year."? The answer to your first question depends on that.

Yep, usually I do.
As an example, I had nothing to give when a person with a phd in phonology asked me for advice. Aviation is a djungel to me.

And without a reputation others might not want to pay professional rates.

Is any expat looking for work able to pay me a few hundreds for an hour? That is what I charge when coaching in/consulting/recruiting for companies or when organisations pay me for assisting e.g. refugees.I thought that was out of the question. Am I wrong?

i'd be happy to pay for it if it was guaranteed. i.e "if we don't find you a job you don't pay."

That guarantee is very tricky.
- A job within ..... weeks/ months?
- Does the candidate follows the instructions?
- Is the candidate employable at all?
And you expect results after only a few hours counseling?

I know that outplacement bureaus can coach you till you find a job for a fixed price (but not for €50,-) but no money back guarantee.

Rinso got it, will not guarantee a job.
One important thing to understand here is that I do not find a job for the seeker, I assist the job seeker to find one themselves. For the reasons listed above. Also, because employers typically want you to be able to look for one yourself in order to trust tyou as an employee. And I certainly would not do it for 50e as that would take hours on my part. The 50 would be to see to it that you know how to do it, where to search, where to go, help you find out what to offer, what employers might be interested in you.

What I could guarantee, is that if you do not learn anything knew from me, I will not charge you.

Btw, recruitment agencies are typically not very helpful (well, again, depends on the field of work and level of education) when it comes to people without Finnish skills. The problem is, they make money out of "selling" employees to others, who just want somebody that will, if possible, do a job without to much induction. If there is induction, requires often too much to do it in English. But there are a few companies that got together recently, and I have been one of the people them helping them work out strategies for recruiting and inducting people with little/no (depending on the company) Finnish skills. Finland is changing slowly but nevertheless there is change.

Anyway, thanks for this, and please, keep it coming, your thoughts are valuable!

[neronakos]

Hey, i'm an international student who is job hunting.

If a company existed that could help me with finding a job, i'd be happy to pay for it if it was guaranteed. i.e "if we don't find you a job you don't pay."

I think you'd have alot of students with zero finnish/swedish language skills asking for help finding a job. Just look at what's posted every day "I need a job help, Urgently need advice etc..."

Seems like alot of work on your behalf for just 50 Euros, but it's a good price on my end.

Well it doesn't say that he will find you job. From what I understood he will just councel you in order to let's say make you the ideal candidate.

Well I have taken a lot of career planning sessions in my university and didn't even manage to be a cleaner.

So in my case no. I agree that if you are on the IT sector there is no problem. Eventually you will find something either with counseling or without.
But if you are on the cases 2 and 3 you will need more than just counseling.

I do also believe that if there is not a guarantee of getting a job, there wouldn't be much interesting to it. At least that is what I believe

[Adrian42]

To be honest, your prices sound too cheap for taking your services seriously (buying 2h of cleaning services for an apartment costs more than what you want to charge).

Makes me laugh, as that really was a point I never even thought of (as people typically expect this for free). Thank you! I nsure eed to think about that, but as my main income comes from something else, I wasn't into making a lot of money, just some compensation for helping out. And I was thinking of how low could I go as the clients would not be in position of a lot of money but still be able to justify myself my use of time.

Free is OK, and proper price is OK.

€ 30 per hour sounds as if anything is wrong with it (not paying taxes properly?).

And without a reputation others might not want to pay professional rates.

Is any expat looking for work able to pay me a few hundreds for an hour? That is what I charge when coaching in/consulting/recruiting for companies or when organisations pay me for assisting e.g. refugees.I thought that was out of the question. Am I wrong?

Buy a one-way ticket to Madrid.
Go to the street with a sign saying "For € 1000 I will find you a full-time job in Finland."
You will be a millionaire before the bunny brings the eggs.

One important thing to understand here is that I do not find a job for the seeker, I assist the job seeker to find one themselves. Also, because employers typically want you to be able to look for one yourself in order to trust tyou as an employee. And I certainly would not do it for 50e as that would take hours on my part. The 50 would be to see to it that you know how to do it, where to search, where to go, help you find out what to offer, what employers might be interested in you.

We are in the middle of an economic crisis with rising unemployment rates and frequent layoffs.

Your typical customer:
- has just arrived in Finland (e.g. an EU citizen from Spain) and
- does not speak any Finnish at all and
- does often not have any proper qualifications (might have only worked as unskilled labor on construction sites) but
- will urgently need a job.

What I could guarantee, is that if you do not learn anything knew from me, I will not charge you.

This is not about learning something, this is about either finding a job quickly or ending up in the gutter.

A refugee gets money from the Finnish government for no matter how long it takes for him to get a job. An expat looking for a job usually does not have this luxury.

How big is the probability that your customer will have found a job after 1 month?

That is the one relevant question to judge whether your services are worth even a high price, or just a waste of money.

[rinso]

Your typical customer:
- has just arrived in Finland (e.g. an EU citizen from Spain) and
- does not speak any Finnish at all and
- does often not have any proper qualifications (might have only worked as unskilled labor on construction sites) but
- will urgently need a job.

What I could guarantee, is that if you do not learn anything knew from me, I will not charge you.

This is not about learning something, this is about either finding a job quickly or ending up in the gutter.

A refugee gets money from the Finnish government for no matter how long it takes for him to get a job. An expat looking for a job usually does not have this luxury.

How big is the probability that your customer will have found a job after 1 month?

That is the one relevant question to judge whether your services are worth even a high price, or just a waste of money.

A coaching of 2 hours "how to hunt for a job the Finnish way" can make a huge difference.
If somebody is unemployable Oye can tell him that for free.

[Adrian42]

Your typical customer:
- has just arrived in Finland (e.g. an EU citizen from Spain) and
- does not speak any Finnish at all and
- does often not have any proper qualifications (might have only worked as unskilled labor on construction sites) but
- will urgently need a job.

What I could guarantee, is that if you do not learn anything knew from me, I will not charge you.

This is not about learning something, this is about either finding a job quickly or ending up in the gutter.

A refugee gets money from the Finnish government for no matter how long it takes for him to get a job. An expat looking for a job usually does not have this luxury.

How big is the probability that your customer will have found a job after 1 month?

That is the one relevant question to judge whether your services are worth even a high price, or just a waste of money.

A coaching of 2 hours "how to hunt for a job the Finnish way" can make a huge difference.
If somebody is unemployable Oye can tell him that for free.

Unemployable people are not the main problem.

The most common "Looking for any job" poster in this forum is exactly the "typical customer" I described above. She is not unemployable, but she is competing with 1000 other people for the 10 jobs she could possibly get.

Whether or not "can make a huge difference" equals "high probability of finding a job quickly" is exactly my question.

[rinso]

Unemployable people are not the main problem.

The most common "Looking for any job" poster in this forum is exactly the "typical customer" I described above. She is not unemployable, but she is competing with 1000 other people for the 10 jobs she could possibly get.

Whether or not "can make a huge difference" equals "high probability of finding a job quickly" is exactly my question.

Approaching it wrong gets you on the reject pile 100% of the time.
Doing it right gets you much more often on the short list. (assuming you're qualified for the job)
100 letters on the reject pile = no job.
100 letters on the short list is almost certainly a job.

[Oye]

Free is OK, and proper price is OK

Yes, I think I have to conclude that making some kind of a compromise does not really work.

€ 30 per hour sounds as if anything is wrong with it (not paying taxes properly?).

Heyyyy, I am lawabiding, of course I'd pay taxes : GST 24%, YEL-fees (in English? incl. mandatory pension and insurance fees) 16,88% (new entrepreneur starting a business for the first time gets a reduction of -25& for the first 48 months), won't have to pay for possible unemployment unless I'd make more than 7300e/ tax year. Wouldn't be able to pay a salary to me if I'd charge this through a subsidiary of my husbands company, which doesn't worry me, we share our money and anyway that can be evened out at the end of the tax year. There are facilities I could use for free downtown and in the suburb next to ours, as long as I don't make too much money out of it. I wouldn't have marketing fees, as I'd only do it upon request. What I did not include in the price that I threw out pretty much of hand, is the time I'd use for bookkeeping (yes, could do it myself, no additional costs) and preparations and follow ups (e.g. handing out suitable contacts afterwards). Have I missed some possible costs?

Buy a one-way ticket to Madrid.
Go to the street with a sign saying "For € 1000 I will find you a full-time job in Finland."
You will be a millionaire before the bunny brings the eggs.

Haha, you are funny!

Seriously though, most of those people in Madrid would not be directly employable in Finland. Not even going to the different working ways and work ethics in these two countries, but just the fact that a majority of the people in Spain does not have sufficient English skills. No Finnish and no Swedish = difficult, additionally no English = pretty impossible without an uncle or auntie doing charity. (should I mention here that I've lived in Spain? I have LIVED the differences)

Your typical customer:
- has just arrived in Finland (e.g. an EU citizen from Spain) and
- does not speak any Finnish at all and
- does often not have any proper qualifications (might have only worked as unskilled labor on construction sites) but
- will urgently need a job.

)

Nope. They would not pay me (or I wouldn't take the money as what they expect is unrealistic in this country). Also, they would not pay me enough, as this type of people would most likely not be very employable after 2hrs of counseling. But in 2 hrs I would have time to show them what they need to do/show in order to have a slightly better chance.

A customer would more likely be somebody, who has moved here do to love or as their partner has gotten a contract here, and they want to do something worthwhile while here. Somebody who has some sort of ties here and a real interest in getting to know our country and our ways. That already gives the candidate some potential.

This is not about learning something, this is about either finding a job quickly or ending up in the gutter.

Yes, it would be in the services I can provide.

A refugee gets money from the Finnish government for no matter how long it takes for him to get a job. An expat looking for a job usually does not have this luxury.

That is a good point with the time aspect.

How big is the probability that your customer will have found a job after 1 month?

Everyone who knows our labour market knows the answer to that: very slim, as the average recruitment procedure already takes a month.

I do wish expats would do a bit more research on the local labour market before coming. When working with expats (yes, done a fair bit of that too), one thing that I often have to start with is what our labour market is like. Most expect they can work it the same way as at home, but that's not the case. I am not saying our labour market is great in anyway, but if you want to make it in it, you need to know it and understand it in order to work it. People don't like to here this but fact is, there are no short cuts. There might be an off-chance of getting like but in majority of the cases.

A coaching of 2 hours "how to hunt for a job the Finnish way" can make a huge difference.
If somebody is unemployable Oye can tell him that for free.

t will take time.

Somebody is talking the same language as I am

If you go to a place, and simply ask for a job, the answer in most cases is a "no". This is the Finnish way.

The most common "Looking for any job" poster in this forum is exactly the "typical customer" I described above. She is not unemployable, but she is competing with 1000 other people for the 10 jobs she could possibly get.

Actually, that person is pretty unemployable here, that is, at the moment. Especially because the way all those posts are done already shows an approach, which would have to be worked on in order to have success (and no, those posts are not only in this kind of forums, I have received MANY that kind of applications too. Luckily many also know to do it at least a bit differently when approaching potential employers). No one gives anyone a job just because that person needs a job.
Rinso said it well:

Approaching it wrong gets you on the reject pile 100% of the time.
Doing it right gets you much more often on the short list. (assuming you're qualified for the job)

[Pursuivant]

No one gives anyone a job just because that person needs a job.

But they are so entitled...

[geek5354]

A customer would more likely be somebody, who has moved here do to love or as their partner has gotten a contract here, and they want to do something worthwhile while here. Somebody who has some sort of ties here and a real interest in getting to know our country and our ways. That already gives the candidate some potential.

The idea is not offending to me and thanks for sharing it.

Speaking as an (ir)rational customer, I wouldn't sign up because I have the preconceived notion that such services are generally not personalized despite what the marketing materials may claim. I assume I'd be given the same factory-made materials and help which are given to all other customers. My application may escape the rejection pile with your help but it will end up on the same short list together with all your other customers which there may be many. Your low price reinforces the belief. You can try raising prices but if I were your target customer, I can probably get a lot of help already through my partner's ties so my pain of job searching is less than others. If my partner has a job or a supportive family here, then I have less urgency as well. Without pain and urgency, I'm less inclined to pay more for the service unless it provides extraordinary values.

This is just one person's opinion with a slight bias against HR services. I hope you have also asked your acquaintances whom you had helped before to see if they would be willing to pay since they know better the values you provide.