Is 'perhe' not countable in Finnish?

[cssc]

I am looking at 2 sentences here:

Onko hänellä auto?
Onko teillä perhettä?

Second is in partitive, first isn't. So is 'perhe' not countable unless you know exactly how many people are in the family?
Thanks.

[AldenG]

Minulla on perhettä Tampereella means I have some family in Tampere, I have family members in Tampere. But it means it in singular mass.

Minulla on perhe Tampereella would mean I have a family (the whole thing, more or less) in Tampere. For some reason this feels a little odd to me, maybe it's just foreigner insecurity. I guess to me it makes a family seem more of an elective thing, like a possession, that you could have a collection of in various cities. I'd more likely go with the following:

Perheeni asuu Tampereella means that my family (my core family) lives in Tampere.

Your original example is a litle ambiguous because partitive can also express doubt or even politeness in a question.

Now if you asked Onko teillä perhettä Tampereella it would be clearer you were asking if someone has any family (members, but as a singular mass) in Tampere. Grammatically it's analogous to asking if you have any money in Tampere.

[AldenG]

But multiple families are of course countable.

Tampereella asuu monta perhettä. (Grammatically singular)

Monet perheet lähtevät kohta lomalle. (Grammatically plural)

[Rob A.]

I am looking at 2 sentences here:

Onko hänellä auto?
Onko teillä perhettä?

Second is in partitive, first isn't. So is 'perhe' not countable unless you know exactly how many people are in the family?
Thanks.

I don't think that is quite it....I think it has more to do with completeness...

Does he have a car?.... You would be thinking in terms of a whole car.... But maybe you could say: Onko hänellä muutamia autoja? But I don't think you could say: Onko hänellä muutama autoa?????

The second question is more indefinite..."Do you have (any) family?....

But if the idea were: "Do you have a family?"...I wonder if it it might actually be: Onko teillä perhe?... I'll leave that for someone with better knowledge of Finnish than I, but at least with perhettä, if I heard that I would be thinking the question is about family in a broad, general sense rather than in terms of a precise number of individuals....

This can get amazingly complicated as sometimes the verb will require partitive endings even if you are talking about a precise thing, because the action of the sentence is the incomplete, indefinite thing not the actual object. I think it is best to think in terms of sentence chunks and sentence usage and then just get lots of practice to see what works and what doesn't.... The guiding principle with the partitive is, broadly, the idea of definite and indefinite, complete and incomplete...that sort of thing.

I think when a Finn hears a partitive ending s/he starts to think in terms of ongoing activities, incomplete things, and, well, just a general messiness about the situation being discussed I suppose....

[Rob A.]

Oh sorry Alden...I hadn't realized you had posted....

[Jukka Aho]

I am looking at 2 sentences here:

Onko hänellä auto?
Onko teillä perhettä?

Second is in partitive, first isn't. So is 'perhe' not countable unless you know exactly how many people are in the family?
Thanks.

Actually, both forms are possible:

Onko hänellä auto?
“Does he have a car?” (Does he own a car?)

Onko hänellä autoa?
“Does he have a car?” (...at hand, at his disposal. The question can be thought of being more open-ended, pondering, or indirect/indefinite — maybe a bit softer and more “polite” as well. The partitive seems to make less assumptions about ownership.)

Onko hänellä perhe?
“Does he have a family?” (...on his own — think about a single, well-defined family unit with clear boundaries; a nuclear family)

Onko hänellä perhettä?
“Does he have family?” (any first-degree relatives / family members, or comparable)

Perhe can be thought of being a well-defined, indivisible unit... or in this more distributive, divisible, indefinite sense.

Hänen perhettään oli (läsnä) hautajaisissa.
“Members of his family attended to the funeral.” / “...were present at the funeral.” (Not all of them, but the family did attend in some capacity.)

[cssc]

Maybe it was for politeness, then. Nice to know I can't really go wrong there..

[jahasjahas]

Minulla on perhe Tampereella would mean I have a family (the whole thing, more or less) in Tampere. For some reason this feels a little odd to me, maybe it's just foreigner insecurity.

Minulla on perhe myös Tampereella, mutta älkää kertoko siitä vaimolleni!

[AldenG]

Minulla on perhe myös Tampereella, mutta älkää kertoko siitä vaimolleni!

Are you validating the hesitation I expressed about the connotation of the sentence?

CSSC, we often think these things are part of the exotic side of the Finnish language, but as with many other examples that seem at first blush to require much explanation, it's not very different from a correctly chosen English analogue.

One of the more common descriptions of partitive is that it expresses the notion some or any. And you could very well ask in English, "Does he have any family?" "Does he have any family in Tampere?" The distinction between those two is about the same in Finnish. Or you could say, "I have some family in Tampere," though we'd be more likely in English to omit the "some."

[jahasjahas]

Well, yes, "Minulla on perhe Tampereella." / "I have a family in Tampere." sounds like the person either has several families in different towns or treats their family like an object.

Maybe it could be used like "Don't kill me, I have a wife and kids to feed!", though adding "and they live in Tampere!" would make it unintentionally humorous.

[cssc]

'Any family' makes sense. And the lesson just did not translate it exactly, or explain why 'perhe' was in the partitive. Which is why I had to come here...

[Rob A.]

'Any family' makes sense. And the lesson just did not translate it exactly, or explain why 'perhe' was in the partitive. Which is why I had to come here...

Of course, I would say, unless you are a professional translator, the point is to try to understand the Finnish....English is used so that as a learner of Finnish you can grasp the intent of the Finnish message. And to that end if, you are trying to get across a more general or vague or indefinite concept, you should head towards the partitive... A precise, known, complete concept will call for the accusative or genitive-type declension. (Accusative is a case that is argued about by Finnish grammarians, so maybe I should say a non-partitive case.)

....be aware that some verbs call for partitive objects, but the message here will be that the action the verb is denoting is the more important aspect of the sentence....

Edit: Maybe its time to mention again for reflection a couple of sentences commonly used to clearly show the partitive case in action ...the words are almost identical, ...just one letter different, but the meaning is totally different:

Ammuin karhun.....means you have one completely dead bear...."I shot the bear (dead).

Ammuin karhua. ...means you may have an injured bear or a bear that escaped the assault unscathed...."I shot at the bear."

[cssc]

Yes, I am aware of partitive verbs.

My problem was that both those sentences were from the same lesson & I didn't know why they were different. But it isn't at all uncommon for someone to ask in English, "Do you have any family?" I think the text should have done a better job explaining. I just to want to have to UNlearn things if I can get it right the first, second or third time!

I'm going to be asking alot of questions so I hope everyone can be patient with me...

[Vellamo]

Onko hänellä perhettä?
“Does he have family?” (any first-degree relatives / family members, or comparable)

If I wanted to ask someone if they have a family, I'd use the partitive, even if I was refering to the nuclear family sort of consept instead of more broad group of relatives. Onko sinulla perhettä? I feel it leaves both options open, yes or no, and doesn't assume.

[Pursuivant]

Well its the same issue as with any other word... say the wife.

Presidentin vastaanotolle saapui pääministeri vaimoineen... (has one wife)
Presidentin vastaanotolle saapui swazimaan kuningas vaimoineen... (has 50 wives)

If you say Kimi Räikkönen came off the ferry with his car, in English its fine, but in Finnish Kimi tuli laivalta autoineen it can be understood as a multiple, so Kimi could be coming with his car collection.... it is very context-related.