the place of Swedish in Finland.

[foca]

People , what do you think will happen with Swedish in Finland? what do you think about its role an fits future here? should it be replaced by English one day? way to many questions....share your opinion .

[onkko]

English has replaced it decades ago and its dying part of colonial sweden. Soon we get rid of it in goverment and schools.
Sure we will have swedish speaking minority but we wont need to learn swedish to serve them. Bad slaves we are...

[foca]

To be frank I have never seen a Finn who learned Swedish at school to properly speak it( though such an incident may have happened). And contrary to them most Swedish do speak Finnish , being truly bilingual . so I do not understand all that fuss of Finns complaining of learning Swedish at school - they still can not speak it....

[onkko]

To be frank I have never seen a Finn who learned Swedish at school to properly speak it( though such an incident may have happened). And contrary to them most Swedish do speak Finnish , being truly bilingual . so I do not understand all that fuss of Finns complaining of learning Swedish at school - they still can not speak it....

Do you have mandatory "select language" to serve "select language"? Do they have mandatory finnish in sweden even finnswedes are bigger minority than swedefinns in here?
Its not about how or if you learn it, you have to learn it to be able work for goverment or pass on education. Its a joke but mandatory.
And of course most of swedishfinns do speak finnish, this is finland and they live with finnish speaking finns.
For example i havent needed swedish once in my work, english a lot and i know some and currently russian would be nice, more than nice. But swedish never. And still i have to learn it at school instead of something what could be useful just for serving little minority who forgot that we arent their colony anymore.

[foca]

Do they have mandatory finnish in sweden even finnswedes are bigger minority than swedefinns in here?.

That is technically not true. There are a bit more than 4 per cent of population of Sweden that is of Finnish decent or local Finnish speaking people. and yet most of Finnish born who live in Sweden are not Finnish but Swedish Finnish.

[Upphew]

Do they have mandatory finnish in sweden even finnswedes are bigger minority than swedefinns in here?.

That is technically not true. There are a bit more than 4 per cent of population of Sweden that is of Finnish decent or local Finnish speaking people. and yet most of Finnish born who live in Sweden are not Finnish but Swedish Finnish.

4,7% Speak or can understand Finnish according to Sisuradio.

[Rosamunda]

People , what do you think will happen with Swedish in Finland? what do you think about its role an fits future here? should it be replaced by English one day? way to many questions....share your opinion .

There is a citizens' initiative in the pipeline:
https://www.kansalaisaloite.fi/fi/ohjee ... in-english

...it will be interesting to follow the debate.
http://yle.fi/uutiset/citizens_against_ ... sh/6771945

[Jukka Aho]

People , what do you think will happen with Swedish in Finland? what do you think about its role an fits future here? should it be replaced by English one day? way to many questions....share your opinion .

A sizable faction of the so-called “elite” in Finland (politicians, cultural elite, intellectuals, higher-tier civil servants, academia) holds dear the thought Finland should maintain a close alignment with the Scandinavian countries — in particular, Sweden. There are obvious historical and geopolitical reasons for that desire. To be blunt, the Swedish culture, political climate, values, and way of life are seen as quite a bit more familiar and progressive than those of the Eastern neighbor, and Sweden arguably often is our closest ally, politically speaking.

Thus, the fact that Swedish enjoys a special status as the other official language of the country is seen not only as an issue concerning a minority language and its speakers but something that should supposedly help all Finns “naturally” maintain relations with the Swedes — even if some Finns are too obtuse to see it is all for their own good, and even if it doesn’t really work that way in practice.

Then there is of course the fact the Swedish-speaking Finns have politically concentrated their voting power to a single party, the SFP, who is seen as a great little helper party for forming a coalition government along with whoever wins the election... as their only hardline issue is language politics and everything else is pretty much negotiable. SFP has been part of each Finnish Government since 1975, and all in all participated in 49 of the 72 Governments throughout the history of Finland as an independent country. For how long that decades-old arrangement will last remains to be seen but since 1975 no ruling party has wanted to disturb the status quo.

Be that as it might, the number of Swedish speakers is in decline. At some point (by the year 2050, according to some projections) those who speak Russian as their mother tongue will likely surpass them.

Then what?

Since we aren’t there yet, and the predictions might not be too accurate, it is a can of worms the politicians would rather not open in advance. Or touch at all, if it can be helped. But especially some municipalities in Eastern Finland — far away from the Swedish-speaking areas which are mainly concentrated on the Western and South-Western coastline — have already voiced a concern of getting nothing out of Swedish and it being a waste of time and resources compared to teaching Russian to the kids as their second or third language, which would better prepare them to offer services to the Russian tourists or establish local cross-border business ties.

Making any changes to the established tradition will be a difficult thing both to the Swedish-speakers themselves and the Finnish-speaking political elite which has long fought the battle along with them, and created this (perhaps a bit misguided) strawman of their “enemy” being thick-headed rural monoglot illiterates opposing benevolent attempts at educating, civilizing, and properly “Nordicizing” them. And, of course, anything that will erode the current somewhat protected and privileged position of the Swedish speakers will surely be a blow to the perceived self-identity of this group. Such things are always messy and somewhat alienating, so I’m sure we will see suggestions to the effect that their status be somehow preserved as an historical exception, or that instead of demoting one minority language group to a less special status, we will promote another one to the same status (or some such “everybody is a special snowflake and a winner” feel-good solution.)

It should also be noted that for the older generations of the Finnish political and cultural elite, the idealized countries to look up to were always Sweden and the pre-WW2 Germany, whereas the Anglo-Saxon cultural sphere and American influences (which are the current primary cultural reference for the younger generations of Finns) have been seen as less desirable objects of idolatry, politically and culturally. Part of this thinking stems from the Cold War and “Finlandization” era when Finnish politicians practiced self-censorship and made sure not to express too much public support for the US politics or cultural influences in order not to draw the ire of the USSR, or simply due to subscribing to a much more leftist worldview. Sweden, as a “neutral” Western country leaning to social democracy, was deemed a much safer choice to be held as an example for what Finland should aim for in terms of progress.

[AldenG]

^ What he said.

[onkko]

Do they have mandatory finnish in sweden even finnswedes are bigger minority than swedefinns in here?.

That is technically not true. There are a bit more than 4 per cent of population of Sweden that is of Finnish decent or local Finnish speaking people. and yet most of Finnish born who live in Sweden are not Finnish but Swedish Finnish.

And most of swedish speakink population in finland arent swedish but "finnish swedish". Your point?

675k speaking finnish in sweden vs 291k speaking swedish in finland. You do math.
And remember that meaänkieli and smilar is finnish even if sweden wont say so.

[Rob A.]

Nice Jukka

I don't know how you can pull this stuff together so well. It appeals to an analytical, problem-solving oriented person like myself....but not to a typical voter who likes to see things in black and white, good and evil, winners and losers,....strawmen ....and other weird points-of-view.

It explains why in democratic countries, election campaigns are generally so superficial and mindnumbing.....As a politico, you have to look serious, but speak in ways that the voter can interpret the way they want to.... any other course spells political oblivion....

[Jukka Aho]

Nice Jukka

I don't know how you can pull this stuff together so well. It appeals to an analytical, problem-solving oriented person like myself....but not to a typical voter who likes to see things in black and white, good and evil, winners and losers,....strawmen ....and other weird points-of-view.

It explains why in democratic countries, election campaigns are generally so superficial and mindnumbing.....As a politico, you have to look serious, but speak in ways that the voter can interpret the way they want to.... any other course spells political oblivion.... ;)

Don’t get me wrong — it’s a deeper thing than just politics. Swedish-speaking Finns are an integrated part of the Finnish society. Many of the important political and cultural figureheads in the last couple of centuries — people who shaped what Finland is today — spoke Swedish as their first language. Some of those people were instrumental in holding the torch for the Finnish national identity (and even for the Finnish language!) back in time when the idea of a nation state was still in its infancy and when attempts at Russificating the Grand Duchy were underway.

For the longest time, Swedish (along with Latin and German) was the language in which you could get higher education, job as a civil servant, merchant, lawyer, etc. Families or individuals who were in the position of climbing the social ladder often adopted Swedish as the language they spoke at home. The organized society in Finland — legislation, for example — is largely based on the old Swedish rule. Ideas and way of life have been shaped by that shared history of about 560 years.

The position of the Swedish-speaking Finns is unique in that their identity is not a Swedish identity. They do have an identity of their own but it’s that of the Swedish-speaking Finns, not that of a Swede. Only a part of them come from family lineages which can be traced back to Swedish settlers. Many others come from families of mixed origin who just happened to adopt Swedish as the language they speak at home since it was the natural thing for those higher up the ladder. But due to the history of Swedish having been the language of the “better folks”, this pool includes influential families of successful entrepreneurs, merchants, etc. who have “old money” (or have been able to maintain and accumulate their wealth) even today. But there are also lots of blue collar or rural Swedish speakers who are often at pains in explaining they’re not from those money families even though the Finnish speakers might stereotypically assume so.

Curiously, Swedish-speaking Finns (save for a couple of exceptions) are relative unknowns and nobodies in Sweden. They often have to explain their existence in there, speaking Swedish with an accent that is often mistook for a Finnish accent and using vocabulary that sounds, at times, a bit archaic to the Swedish ear. Swedish laymen are not too interested in Finland and not well-educated about the shared history of the two countries. For modern-day Swedes, Finland is the country which flooded them with immigrant (car factory) working-class people in the 1960s and 1970s, having a poor command of Swedish and bringing a host of social problems along with them. Finland having once been part of Sweden and there being a community of Swedish speakers appears to be only a side note in the Swedish history books.

The significant thing about Swedish-speaking Finns is that they have a powerful community and a firmly established position in the political and cultural life and the economy of Finland. Even though their numbers might eventually dwindle, and even though there are some signs of the idea of the bilingual Finland no longer being “a given” (for example, you’re no longer required to take a test in “the other domestic language” in the matriculation exam), it is probably still a long way off before any other minority language group can hope to challenge their position. It’s not only about the language but networking and connectedness; integration to the society, and at the same time establishing a sense of community, having a sense of “birthright”. Swedish-speaking Finns have all that but the other minority language groups may not be quite there yet (save for the Sami people.)

As for the question of the ever-increasing importance of English as a generic working language and how that should be dealt with, especially in administrative and educational settings... well, it’s an interesting question, for sure, but a bit different from having a politically and culturally unified, significant community of native English-speakers living here and sharing a common identity... so it’s not directly comparable to the Swedish speakers and their place in the Finnish society.

[Rob A.]

Nice explanation...but I'll just focus on this part for now....

Swedish laymen are not too interested in Finland and not well-educated about the shared history of the two countries. For modern-day Swedes, Finland is the country which flooded them with immigrant (car factory) working-class people in the 1960s and 1970s, having a poor command of Swedish and bringing a host of social problems along with them. Finland having once been part of Sweden and there being a community of Swedish speakers appears to be only a side note in the Swedish history books.

This seems to be typical of countries which at one time had far more significance in international affairs than they might now..... British Empire....Ottoman Empire.....French Empire.... and it seems ...even the Swedish Empire....

No surprise I guess that during my childhood education the prism through which history was viewed was that of Britain and the USA... Those closely related "Centres of the Universe"...

Over the years I have read more and more about the history of various other countries and cultures. That Sweden was such a strong, dynamic and rather nasty world player in the late middle ages-early modern age always seems to surprise me....the general modern view of Sweden in North America is that it is a kind of progressive, benign, sensible country whose people wouldn't "harm a fly"...so to speak........

But Sweden has a deep and dark history in European affairs...maybe not surprising that most Swedes would no longer know about all of this...it probably isn't emphasized in their schools anymore.

The latest "Swedish surprise" I had was in reading this book:

Rural Society and the Search for Order in Early Modern Germany

Its point of focus is a small Protestant German principality on the edge of Bavaria...Hohenlohe....and I was surprised to find the Swedish army ....mercenaries for the most part ....had a major role in the turmoil in this part of Germany during the Thirty Years War..... it came as a surpise to me because it seems so far away from Sweden.....

[Aside: The Swedes were there because Hohenlohe was a Protestant area and the surrounding countryside was Catholic.....and so, of course, this area had to be fought over. This book is great for people interested in this sort of thing.....I could see in it clear outlines of some of the attitudes and ways of doing things I've encountered during a couple trips to this general area in modern times.

Despite a lot of people's protestations to the contrary, the past never totally disappears it just gets overlain with another layer which will become a part of the area's history. I don't know if the Hakkapeliitat were in Hohenlohe....but they were certainly in Bavaria during the Thirty Years War....the book doesn't mention them, but then to the German peasants they would have been just another version of the dreaded Swedes......

"Bet´t Kinder, bet´t. Morgen kommt der Schwed"

The German peasants, of course, whether Protestant or Catholic, were always on the losing end of things....their food and lodgings were taken either by "law" or by "pilllage"....your "friends" were just as nasty in the end as your "enemies"...]

[AldenG]

And manifestly there are quite a few Finns, though not as many as there are Swedes, who also have little to no grasp of what the finlandssvensk identity actually represents, which historic figures (some nowadays known by Finnish-sounding names) they'd be excising if they could excise "Swedish" elements of Finnish heritage, or how much of the Fennomane movement's success owed to such elite influences.

Of course that doesn't necessarily mean that Swedish should be the universal "first second language" in Finnish schools. It's at least a debatable question.

But Finns with little to no insight or access to pan-Nordic culture will always remain on some level intellectually and culturally impoverished. It might not make them second-class Finnish citizens, but it would probably make them second-class European citizens. Then again a sense of such inadequacy may well be an important part of what drives much of the animosity in the first place.

[Sami-Is-Boss]

With regard to language teaching, would it make sense to only teach Swedish in Finnish-speaking schools in areas of Finland where the Swedish-speaking population is above a certain level? This would allow areas in the East to concentrate on languages that might be more useful to them.