Non-married divorcing father needs info

djuk79 · Post by **djuk79** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:24 pm

HI all,

Been reading this forum for a while but haven't found an answer

I am non-finnish resident, in a 5 year long non-married relationship & roof with a finnish woman and have a 2.5 year old child. Due to the increasing frequency of violent and aggressive behaviour of my spouse (Wein front of the child, whom I love an care for, sometimes I'd like to think even more than the mother) I decided to end it,

Can you give me some advice (links) on what am I to expect (the spouse is a vindictive personality so she will do everything to make me suffer):
Custody:
I want to keep the close relationship with the child. I remember signing a paternity paper on bith. Does this guarantee me joint custody? I guess to ask for the child to stay with me, I can forget it. Any links to legislation or cases where father was asking for custody.

Property and alimony
Even if we agree on joint custody and the child spends time 50/50 between me and the mother, I guess I am obligated to pay some alimony, if I earn more money than her? Where can I read more on this and how it is calculated?

This one is tricky:
We bought an apartment recently where I paid 20% of the price from my personal savings and the rest via a mortgage which we pay of according to the share of the apartment ownership 60(me)/40(her). How does this get divided? I am offering to pay her back every penny+interest that she paid for the apartment, however she believes she owns 40% of it and I should offer her 40% of the market price to buy her out.

Thank you

**Sponsor:**

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:30 pm

I think we have had several threads regarding the topics ask about. If the separation is not going to be amicable, and there is child a significant amount of property involved; I'm afraid you'll need a lawyer.

Whose name is on the mortgage paper?

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:53 pm

One old conversation (there has been something relevant newer too, but I can't find it just now): https://www.finlandforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=48512

Three different calculators for estimating the child support. They should of course give more or less the same answer. All in Finnish (or Swedish). Well, Google translate is getting better all the time..
http://www.sosiaalikollega.fi/virtu.fi/ ... apulaskuri
http://www.oikeus.fi/49701.htm
http://www.hyvaerovanhemmuus.fi/laskuri.xls

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:27 pm

djuk79 wrote: Custody:
I want to keep the close relationship with the child. I remember signing a paternity paper on bith. Does this guarantee me joint custody? I guess to ask for the child to stay with me, I can forget it. Any links to legislation or cases where father was asking for custody.

If the paternity is official, you may expect joint custody. The child will probably live with the mother and visit you. (average; one weekend every 2 weeks, every other holiday)

We bought an apartment recently where I paid 20% of the price from my personal savings and the rest via a mortgage which we pay of according to the share of the apartment ownership 60(me)/40(her). How does this get divided? I am offering to pay her back every penny+interest that she paid for the apartment, however she believes she owns 40% of it and I should offer her 40% of the market price to buy her out.

Not married then all depends what the paperwork says. If the ownership is 60/40 on paper she indeeds owned 40% of the apartment (and 40% of the mortgage.)
If you cannot find a solution it might be even so that she stays in the apartment with the child (and pays you rent for your 60% ownership) and you have to move out.
It is a recipe for constant conflicts. Maybe better to sell it than going through a perpetual fight where she will use the child as a weapon (frustrating visiting times).

I think it is absolutely necessary for you to take a lawyer.

Upphew · Post by **Upphew** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:31 pm

djuk79 wrote:Property and alimony
Even if we agree on joint custody and the child spends time 50/50 between me and the mother, I guess I am obligated to pay some alimony, if I earn more money than her? Where can I read more on this and how it is calculated?

If you mean alimony as "a husband's (or wife's) provision for a spouse after separation or divorce; maintenance."... 0. You "only" pay to kid, granted that if the mother is the parent that kids stays with most of the time, it will be paid to her, but is meant to be used for the costs that kid generates. If kid stays with you most of the time then you will be getting the money.

djuk79 · Post by **djuk79** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:04 pm

Thanks for all the support and links!!!!! This was a bit of a cold shower. So settling out of court/amicably is likely the best outcome for me (as she has everything to gain and me to lose

) - making her an offer that she'd accept.

If the paternity is official, you may expect joint custody. The child will probably live with the mother and visit you. (average; one weekend every 2 weeks, every other holiday)

This is joint custody?!? 1ce every two weeks on average?

I absolutely don't want me or the child to end up like this and I am willing to fight till the end against such a split/decision. I have evidence of spouses violent and aggressive behaviour in front of the child, threatening SMSs etc. Does that hold in court if I were to try to get the situation reversed (joint custody, but child stays with me)?

What would it take to prove that I am a better parent and option for the child to stay with (or are these just my false hopes)? Without going into details, I spend more time&energy with my child than my spouse.

Whose name is on the mortgage paper

Both names.

Thanks also for the "laskurit" and advice on the property matters helps put things into perspective.

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:49 am

If the paternity is official, you may expect joint custody. The child will probably live with the mother and visit you. (average; one weekend every 2 weeks, every other holiday)
This is joint custody?!? 1ce every two weeks on average?

The decisions are made from the perspective of what is best for the child. Becoming a jojo between parents often is not.
Cultural the mother is seen as the prime care giver so she has the advantage.

I have evidence of spouses violent and aggressive behaviour in front of the child, threatening SMSs etc. Does that hold in court if I were to try to get the situation reversed (joint custody, but child stays with me)?

What would it take to prove that I am a better parent and option for the child to stay with (or are these just my false hopes)? Without going into details, I spend more time&energy with my child than my spouse.

If the aggression is directed towards the child you have a point. Otherwise you'll fight an uphill battle. Spending more time with the child is not a decisive argument.
Other factors like how the living situation is, distance to school/friends and so on also come in play.

djuk79 · Post by **djuk79** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:12 am

Thanks @rinso, you make a good point

Becoming a jojo between parents often is not

last question
If we make a written agreement and sign it is that enough, or we need presence/signature of a witness/lawyer/social worker?

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:07 pm

djuk79 wrote: If we make a written agreement and sign it is that enough, or we need presence/signature of a witness/lawyer/social worker?

These things are often done through the local social worker. If the alimony is not paid, the municipality steps in so they want to be involved in the process.
And making things "official" is the best way to make them work.

ajdias · Post by **ajdias** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:46 pm

Let me stress what Rinso wrote above: you absolutely need to talk to a lawyer, one that has expertise in family matters.
Even if you intend to avoid the courts you must talk with someone that can advise you.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:53 pm

djuk79 wrote: This is joint custody?!? 1ce every two weeks on average?

Joint custody means that both parents have a say in official matters- It is a, not completely separate but, different issue from where the child would live. On the other end of the arrangements are those where the child spends every week or so with one parent and equal time with the other living close by. In practice I'd assume that requires parents that are in reasonable speaking terms with each other.

Whose name is on the mortgage paper
Both names.

The simple reading of the law would say then that you'll continue owning the house and mortgage jointly also after separation. I don't think she can force you to buy her out; I think either one of you can demand the apartment will be sold and that you distribute the money. You probably really need the lawyer to tell what should you do to get the down payment you made with your own money taken properly into account.

betelgeuse · Post by **betelgeuse** » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:11 pm

Rip wrote: The simple reading of the law would say then that you'll continue owning the house and mortgage jointly also after separation. I don't think she can force you to buy her out; I think either one of you can demand the apartment will be sold and that you distribute the money. You probably really need the lawyer to what should you do to get the down payment you made with your own money taken properly into account.

Yes either one can demand it to be sold but it has to be done through the court.

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/1958/19580180

Section 9.

djuk79 · Post by **djuk79** » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:20 am

All, I cannot stress how grateful I am for all your help!!!!

After reading all this and the links you provided I feel much calmer and confident (eventhough some things are difficult to come to terms with)

Also I found this resource specifically useful: https://www.sosiaaliportti.fi/fi-FI/las ... sovittelu/

You probably really need the lawyer to what should you do to get the down payment you made with your own money taken properly into account.

I spoke to a lawyer, who basically confirmed much of the things you all said. Need to get a second opinion though (also regarding legal fees)

On the other end of the arrangements are those where the child spends every week or so with one parent and equal time with the other living close by. In practice I'd assume that requires parents that are in reasonable speaking terms with each other.

This is exactly the situation I would like to achieve! I am just afraid that due to the aggressive and violent nature this is not going to be possible (at least short term) and I want to limit the damage done. She seems to hold all the cards so I need to be very careful (and have a plan B involving lawyer in case she is not willing or capable to discuss, but wants to resort to some kind of revenge and "destroy me" behavior, which she always threatens me with).

Just to note, I am not having an affair or doing anything unlawful, I am first and foremost concerned about the child's well being. The fact that this relationship is only going downhill with uncontrollable rage and aggression attacks from her side getting more frequent and intense (causing retreat and "closure" on my side, which is like adding fuel to a fire for her) - and this is taking a toll on the child and I want to end it as soon and as painless as possible - still while the child is young. I hope we can do this as friends not as enemies.

I decided to to keep calm and wait for my spouse to come back to reality from her rage and try to discuss like adults about the future (i have just spent my 1'st night back at the home sofa , still agressive behaivor, but manageable). If that does not help then I need to do it the hard way, likely moving out, and involving a lawyer and social worker from the start.

Thanks again & god bless you!

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