Inheritance - proof of family ties for UK citizen

[Pumpkin]

Hello,
An elderly relation, born in UK but resident in Finland for the last year of her life, recently passed away. The sole next of kin, her son, is resident in Finland. The Finnish authorities now demand the 'virkatodistus' to prove that she has no other children still alive. Does anyone know how that can be proven for a UK citizen, since there is no central register? British embassy not much help; suggested UK electoral role but that of course says nothing about children.
We'd be very grateful for any pointers on this. I'm sure someone else must have encountered this!

[Rip]

since there is no central register?

Most of the Finns doing this can't resort to central register either, but have to get the papers from all the municipalities/parishes the person who died used to live since the age 15.

Is there anything similar in Britain - a local registration of births (and then you just collect the whole set (of "no chgildren born") from puberty to time of emigration)

In case you do not get a more informative answer, you could perhaps ask maistraatti what kind of paper they'd want to see, or maybe the the Finnish embassy in London has given advice on the issue to somebody already earlier.

[Rosamunda]

I cannot think of any register in the UK which would hold this kind of information. But you could try the National Insurance register (Newcastle???) - to find out if at any point in time she claimed child benefit or child allowance. I guess it depends how "elderly" she is and whether they keep those kinds of records.
http://www.helpcentreuk.com/newcastle-ni-number/
Or try posting the question on an expat forum: http://britishexpats.com/forum/



General knowledge question: why would the Finnish authorities need to know this?

[Pursuivant]

General knowlege: because its written so.

The "virkatodistus" isn't quite enough if you gind a cousin. For people not in Finland who would be inheritors, you need an "elossaolotodistus" which is quite impossible to get in the UK, as there is a death certificate, but not a zombie certificate for the undead. So I had to find a solicitor who is a Notary Public and get a parchment drawn with quill and ink and sent with a carrier pigeon... (well not quite, but the seals and ribbons were quite impressive, as was the bill, which still was cheaper wasting the day in London at the embassy)

Finnish authorities can't comprehend pigs-in-fields. So you need to get an impressive paper.

So, a record of "no record" from all register offices before migration or something of the equivalent, sworn in front of a NP should suffice. But indeed its easiest to ask the maistraatti what exact kind of nonexistant paper they want.

[Rip]

General knowledge question: why would the Finnish authorities need to know this?

They want to know if the persons claiming to be the heirs are the the only persons to have a claim - so if you inherit your parent(s) you need to show that there is no record of them having any other children than those listed with estate inventory. If any of your siblings are already dead you need to likewise show that all of their known children are listed.

Even in Finland one needs to still get the documentation from old home towns (old enough records are not yet reliably in the central population register?), and it naturally gets much worse if the deceased has lived abroad.

I think some of the cases the final solution has been to get the Finnish foreign ministry to write a paper that suitable documentation is simply unavailable, but I think that has been for more exotic cases than UK.

[Rosamunda]

General knowledge question: why would the Finnish authorities need to know this?

They want to know if the persons claiming to be the heirs are the the only persons to have a claim - so if you inherit your parent(s) you need to show that there is no record of them having any other children than those listed with estate inventory. If any of your siblings are already dead you need to likewise show that all of their known children are listed.

Yes, I understood why they are asking for the paper but my question was more along the lines of, "What are they going to do with this information?" Is it just bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy or are there some obscure tax implications. Why would being the sole heir of an inheritance change anything?

[Upphew]

Yes, I understood why they are asking for the paper but my question was more along the lines of, "What are they going to do with this information?" Is it just bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy or are there some obscure tax implications. Why would being the sole heir of an inheritance change anything?

If one wasn't the only remaining heir, then the others would have a stake in inheritance too.

[Rosamunda]

Yes, I understood why they are asking for the paper but my question was more along the lines of, "What are they going to do with this information?" Is it just bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy or are there some obscure tax implications. Why would being the sole heir of an inheritance change anything?

If one wasn't the only remaining heir, then the others would have a stake in inheritance too.

Well, that's kind of obvious. So basically the Finnish authorities rely on one heir to "denounce" any others...? Is there no other reason? It's seems to be a rather convoluted way of ensuring everyone pays their inheritance tax in an age when everything is digitally linked to the heknilötunnus and IBAN numbers!

[CH]

So basically the Finnish authorities rely on one heir to "denounce" any others...? Is there no other reason? It's seems to be a rather convoluted way of ensuring everyone pays their inheritance tax in an age when everything is digitally linked to the heknilötunnus and IBAN numbers!

Well... they rely on good population archives, and people registering any offspring. The reason for this is that all and any that have any claim to the dead person's assets have been accounted for in the "perunkirja" and called to the "perunkirjoitustilaisuus" (http://www.vero.fi/fi-FI/Henkiloasiakka ... rja(12851)). It's not only the ones inheriting but also any debtors that need to be listed. But... in what way is it "convoluted" and what would be any other reasons than finding out who the heirs? How is this done in other countries?

[betelgeuse]

But... in what way is it "convoluted" and what would be any other reasons than finding out who the heirs? How is this done in other countries?

In many countries you can use a testament to give 100% of your assets to one of your kids so finding out all the kids is less often needed. Barring certain rare exceptions in Finland kids are always entitled to 50%.

[Liam1]

Of interest is it the country of residence on death that dictates the law?
I'm British, my wife is Finnish and even if we move, we'll own most assets in Finland.

I actually want the right to choose, especially that my kids don't have rights over my wife. Does this mean I should not retire to Finland? Think I understood that I can bequeath all but 25% to my wife and that if I should die, the home stays with her even if ownership is not hers.

[betelgeuse]

Of interest is it the country of residence on death that dictates the law?
I'm British, my wife is Finnish and even if we move, we'll own most assets in Finland.

Yes last habitual residence:

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail. ... a1a877725c

However, for inheritance tax purposes Finland has the right to tax property here. This means things can involve the laws of multiple countries (for taxation any way).

I actually want the right to choose, especially that my kids don't have rights over my wife. Does this mean I should not retire to Finland? Think I understood that I can bequeath all but 25% to my wife and that if I should die, the home stays with her even if ownership is not hers.

If you want 100% ownership and control to go over to your wife with 100% certainty, then yes you should not retire in Finland. However, if something less suffices then a lawyer can help you two draft testaments towards that end.

[betelgeuse]

Of interest is it the country of residence on death that dictates the law?
I'm British, my wife is Finnish and even if we move, we'll own most assets in Finland.

Yes last habitual residence:

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail. ... a1a877725c

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/civil/famil ... dex_en.htm

Actually reading on the matter further as British you do also have the option opt-in for British law to be applied.

[Rip]

So basically the Finnish authorities rely on one heir to "denounce" any others...?

No, if they trusted him (both regarding honesty and even knowledge what they parents did in their youth), there would be no need to demand documentary proof.

It's seems to be a rather convoluted way of ensuring everyone pays their inheritance tax in an age when everything is digitally linked to the heknilötunnus and IBAN numbers!

It is to ensure that everybody gets his due inheritance. Taxation only follows that, and insofar the assets are known wouldn't even require the proofs discussed here. If I have understood it correctly, not even within Finland, when the responsibility of registration of the births sifted from priests to central government office, were the old records in paper thoroughly transferred to the new system, and of course the Finnish ID code is not linked in any way to any children an immigrant may have left back home.