integration of Vietnamese people

[Honest]

I've heard this claim before as well and now read in the other thread that Vietnamese have integrated well while Somalis and others not.

What do people mean by integration when they make this claim? Is it that if you are not visible you are integrated? Yes, they have lived here for the longest so their new generations are fluent in Finnish but I'm still to meet a single Vietnamese as a doctor or a nurse. I also don't see them in any of the front desk job, even not as a cashier in a supermarket. Any highly educated Vietnamese with a successful career in politics? I've seen them working in restaurants, laundries and some security firms. Most of them marry between themselves and a lot of them bring their wives or husbands still from Vietnam. So how they are considered integrated? Or if you don't claim equality and stay happily at a lower level of life and stay invisible in society you are declared integrated?

[007]

Or if you don't claim equality and stay happily at a lower level of life and stay invisible in society you are declared integrated?

[Beep_Boop]

Well, depending on how "integration" is defined. In my book, if you:
1- Don't do some crazy !"#¤% that is way outside the norm of the environment in which you live.
2- Are a productive member of the society.
3- Have good relations with your surrounding.
4- Are able to communicate successfully with the people around you.

Then you've integrated very well.

Your measurements are kind of bad, if you ask me. If I were to use them, then I can easily make the argument that no group of people have integrated anywhere in the world. Statistically speaking, the vast vast vaaast majority of people don't have successful careers in politics.
Take the United States for example. There are about 700000 people of Finnish descent there. You can probably count the successful "politicians" on 4 hands. Scale that down to the size of the Vietnamese population (remember, Finland has about 240000 people of foreign background, the majority of whom are Russians; Estonians; and Swedes), you end up with zero point zero-something politicians. Of course, the comparison isn't really even fair, considering how much much more open the American society is to the idea of foreigners (at least compared to Finland), I mean, for God's sake, it's a country of foreigners.

To be honest, when it comes to the metrics you're proposing (number of successful politicians, front-desk jobs, etc.), I think that's a statement about the Finnish society and Finland rather than a statement about Vietnamese people.

P.S. Yes, as usual, I know how this will go. I'll get a reply on a very small portion of my comment (maybe one sentence) and then a completely irrelevant gibberish and absolutely nothing relating to the nuanced ideas and arguments I'm presenting. It's a bit sad and makes me think it's pointless to even participate in such discussions, but I still want to do my part.

[Upphew]

I've heard this claim before as well and now read in the other thread that Vietnamese have integrated well while Somalis and others not.

What do people mean by integration when they make this claim? Is it that if you are not visible you are integrated? Yes, they have lived here for the longest so their new generations are fluent in Finnish but I'm still to meet a single Vietnamese as a doctor or a nurse. I also don't see them in any of the front desk job, even not as a cashier in a supermarket. Any highly educated Vietnamese with a successful career in politics? I've seen them working in restaurants, laundries and some security firms. Most of them marry between themselves and a lot of them bring their wives or husbands still from Vietnam. So how they are considered integrated? Or if you don't claim equality and stay happily at a lower level of life and stay invisible in society you are declared integrated?

You deal with host culture in a way that doesn't bother locals and are happy with your own way of living. And I would emphasize the latter part. You won't integrate if you cling to your old ways and are not willing to change. I can't imagine moving abroad and not learning the language.
"Talo elää tavallaan, vieraat kulkee ajallaan."

[caster]

I've heard this claim before as well and now read in the other thread that Vietnamese have integrated well while Somalis and others not.

What do people mean by integration when they make this claim? Is it that if you are not visible you are integrated? Yes, they have lived here for the longest so their new generations are fluent in Finnish but I'm still to meet a single Vietnamese as a doctor or a nurse. I also don't see them in any of the front desk job, even not as a cashier in a supermarket. Any highly educated Vietnamese with a successful career in politics? I've seen them working in restaurants, laundries and some security firms. Most of them marry between themselves and a lot of them bring their wives or husbands still from Vietnam. So how they are considered integrated? Or if you don't claim equality and stay happily at a lower level of life and stay invisible in society you are declared integrated?

Its like small two sided mirror in any vanity case - one side been normal the other is magnified - you only use it for a quick blush on, selected from various colors that suits the situation at time. Now the question is which side of mirror you are holding onto - the one that magnifies a small spot that need a quick camouflage or otherwise. The word integration stands for integration - but who is integrating into whom - not every pigment has the property to produce a new - Immigration > integration - word if used as its face value - is merely to blend one element into another - until the foreign element been dissolved properly only. The only confusion here is about timing - as this whole process is very new for the natives comparing the rest of the world - and will take couple of more decades before this will be just normal.

[Honest]

You deal with host culture in a way that doesn't bother locals and are happy with your own way of living. And I would emphasize the latter part. You won't integrate if you cling to your old ways and are not willing to change. I can't imagine moving abroad and not learning the language.
"Talo elää tavallaan, vieraat kulkee ajallaan."

So the last sentence of my original post is the key?

If a person is not integrated it's not his fault always but anyway we are not discussing here to find where the fault lies. But I would not call it integration, at the best I can call it is a peaceful co-existence.

Integration means acceptance in society and being a part of the society. May be they don't like politics, education, front desk jobs but don't they like Finnish girls and guys as well? Or Finnish girs and guys don't like them?

How many intermarriages between the "integrated people" and the natives? I think marriages/relationships are a very good indicator of integration. If people don't marry with each other that simply means that they don't interact enough with each other or they are clinging too strongly to their own culture/traditions. Then they can co-exist but never integrate into the society.

@Adnan: How many %%% of those Finns come back here to find their brides and grooms? (Again it can be success of those Finns or it can be the more open and friendly nature of the hosts which has resulted in the integration or a mixture of both)

[Beep_Boop]

Okay, I see. So your biggest problem (the one you've repeated multiple times so far) seems to be the lack of mixed marriages amongst Vietnamese. On the anecdotal side of the argument, I have indeed met about half a dozen of Vietnamese men and women who have married Finnish men and women.

According to SVT statistics (sourced here, pages 6 and 8)
Out of all the mixed marriages registered in Finland between 1996-2006, 2.5% were between Finnish men and Vietnamese spouses, and 1.3% between Finnish women and Vietnamese spouses. Keep in mind that in Finland there's a total of 3611 Vietnamese out of the 208k accounted foreigners, that's about only 1.7% of total foreigner population, let's call it oTFP. (source)
If you compare the numbers to people of other nationalities, respectively, Sweden (3.1%, 6.9%) 4% oTFP, USA (2.3%, 9.7%) 1.3% oTFP, Estonia (11.6%, 1.7%) 21.4% oTFP, you really see that the numbers aren't really that bad if you factor in the disparity between what Finnish men and women prefer.
Finnish men tend to go for the Russians and Asians, while Finnish women go for native English speakers and West Europeans.

So, the numbers say that they're marrying Finns on a very reasonable rate. I hope that settles the argument.

[Honest]

Okay, I see. So your biggest problem (the one you've repeated multiple times so far) seems to be the lack of mixed marriages amongst Vietnamese. On the anecdotal side of the argument, I have indeed met about half a dozen of Vietnamese men and women who have married Finnish men and women.

According to SVT statistics (sourced here, pages 6 and
Out of all the mixed marriages registered in Finland between 1996-2006, 2.5% were between Finnish men and Vietnamese spouses, and 1.3% between Finnish women and Vietnamese spouses. Keep in mind that in Finland there's a total of 3611 Vietnamese out of the 208k accounted foreigners, that's about only 1.7% of total foreigner population, let's call it oTFP. (source)
If you compare the numbers to people of other nationalities, respectively, Sweden (3.1%, 6.9%) 4% oTFP, USA (2.3%, 9.7%) 1.3% oTFP, Estonia (11.6%, 1.7%) 21.4% oTFP, you really see that the numbers aren't really that bad if you factor in the disparity between what Finnish men and women prefer.
Finnish men tend to go for the Russians and Asians, while Finnish women go for native English speakers and West Europeans.

So, the numbers say that they're marrying Finns on a very reasonable rate. I hope that settles the argument.

Satistics can be tricky. Your source talking about the marriages where one was a Finn while the other half was a foreign passport holder. They are not talking about where both were living in Finland. In that sources the marriages are more like the Finnish/Thailand style marriages so totally irrelavent with integration of Vietnamese living in Finland.

[Beep_Boop]

Satistics can be tricky. Your source talking about the marriages where one was a Finn while the other half was a foreign passport holder. They are not talking about where both were living in Finland

Are you high? You can live in Finland for a long time while still being a foreign passport holder. I've been here for many years, in a long-term relationship with a Finnish girl, and I'm a foreign passport holder.

You know what, you just have one idea in your head and you're fixated on it. No statistics or anecdotes will change your mind. I'm out.

[Honest]

You know what, you just have one idea in your head and you're fixated on it. No statistics or anecdotes will change your mind. I'm out.

Rediculous! So your open thinking also believes that those 40% Russians and all those Thai ladies also might be living in Finland? Wake up and understand taht all humans can make mistakes but the good ones accept their mistakes.

The fact remains that your source is almost irrelevant here.

[Pursuivant]

Or if you don't claim equality and stay happily at a lower level of life and stay invisible in society you are declared integrated?

Or how about not coming in as beggars and starting "claiming" in the first place? Who are they to talk about "equality" when the men refuse to work with women and treat their women as they do - yes, they claim "special treatment" but no "equality". How about learning how to live in the society before acting as if you own the place? If you are from a lower level you need to work hard torise from there - it is possible, but its up to you and not helped by complaining. And yes, how about being happy theres nobody shooting at you instead of complaining all the time? How about that? Too much to ask? Well I tell you one thing, you demand and you get the opposite and you demand louder you get 10x the opposite until you learn.

What comes to pairing up - when I grew up I was convinced some nations must propagate by cloning as you saw only men from there and no women. Kind of unfair isn't it. If you come sweet talk my sister why can't I court yours? And yes I am a total xenophobe about cultures. - I would rather court a woman herself and not have to worry about her family or her crazy brothers and cousins will come after me on some kind of a honor vendetta. So the latter rule kind of restricts if you run off hearing a woman is from a certain culture, but I'm too old to believe in the Romeo&Juliet !"#¤%. Other more aesthetic restriction is I prefer "natural" women rather than someone who has had primitive surgery to stitch her privates up or then "modern" surgery to add silicone to her breasts and butt, I find both ideas quite repulsive.

[Upphew]

Or if you don't claim equality and stay happily at a lower level of life and stay invisible in society you are declared integrated?

Or how about not coming in as beggars and starting "claiming" in the first place? Who are they to talk about "equality" when the men refuse to work with women and treat their women as they do - yes, they claim "special treatment" but no "equality". How about learning how to live in the society before acting as if you own the place? If you are from a lower level you need to work hard torise from there - it is possible, but its up to you and not helped by complaining. And yes, how about being happy theres nobody shooting at you instead of complaining all the time? How about that? Too much to ask? Well I tell you one thing, you demand and you get the opposite and you demand louder you get 10x the opposite until you learn.

And when they bitch and moan and demand, all in that group (be it gay or Somali or Vietnamese) gets labelled as big mouthed no good. Vietnamese haven't done that so there haven't been so much resistance from locals compared to Somalis.

Quick glance at one thesis with quite small sample size suggests that those Vietnamese that have preferred Vietnamese way of living so much that haven't taken anything from Finnish way of living (including jobs, friends, language, holidays etc.) haven't integrated here.

[irnbru]

Having lived in East Helsinki for 13 years. I can tell you Somalians have integrated pretty well. They all speak Finnish. They work. Kids are well behaved. They are friendly. I'd take 10 Somalians over 1 Romanian Gypsy.

[Upphew]

Having lived in East Helsinki for 13 years. I can tell you Somalians have integrated pretty well. They all speak Finnish. They work. Kids are well behaved. They are friendly. I'd take 10 Somalians over 1 Romanian Gypsy.

Like I said: enough screw ups, everyone gets labelled.

I do doubt their Finnish skills though, as one company arranged 60000 hours of translation in year 2013. Most translated languages were Russian, Somali and Arabic.

[Elephant]

Having lived in East Helsinki for 13 years. I can tell you Somalians have integrated pretty well. They all speak Finnish. They work. Kids are well behaved. They are friendly. I'd take 10 Somalians over 1 Romanian Gypsy.

Like I said: enough screw ups, everyone gets labelled.

I do doubt their Finnish skills though, as one company arranged 60000 hours of translation in year 2013. Most translated languages were Russian, Somali and Arabic.

There are approx 50,000 (prob more) people in Finland who speak those 3 languages. So, 60,000 billed hours isn't a lot. Especially considering that they bill min 1 hour to translate simple stuff. I needed one page document translated from Finnish to English and they billed 2 hours!!! My husband read it and explained it to me in 15mins but of course he's not an official translator so we had to pay for an "official" to translate it into the exact words my husband used but charge 2 hours for it!!!
I can imagine that a single asylum seeker who's just landed with no Finnish skills and all documents they have in Somali/Arabic etc would use up at least 5 hours of translation if not more.