Computer Science in Finland

12w · Post by **12w** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:22 pm

Hi, I've been looking around alot on various schools in Finland that offer education in programming, and I have two questions:

1. I speak swedish and english, I wonder if this is enough to get past in schools that offer education in swedish/english? I read somewhere a while back that even if it says to be in english or swedish, there's still parts in finnish? I am learning finnish but it's far from the point where I could study in finnish.
Two examples that says it's in english:
http://www.metropolia.fi/en/apply/studi ... echnology/
http://www.haaga-helia.fi/en/education/ ... technology
Could anyone studying these in english say if it's fully in english?

2. if anyone knows about this subject, which one contains more programming and less hardware? since there's computer science, system analysists, information technology etc, and they seem to be a bit different from the swedish equivalent. (less important question as I'm going to apply next year, 2017, but I'd just like to be well prepared and informed, I'll look into this more anyway).

Thank you in advance

**Sponsor:**

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:53 pm

12w wrote:I read somewhere a while back that even if it says to be in english or swedish, there's still parts in finnish?

What you read is wrong. If it says the program is taught in English, then it's taught in English and that's it. Some optional courses might be taught in Finnish, but you won't be choosing those anyway.
Having that said, keep in mind that most of those programs do contain Finnish courses (teaching the Finnish language) that are usually taught in English.

12w wrote:which one contains more programming and less hardware?

Neither of the programs are "computer science". In fact, I don't know any English language bachelor's degree program in Finland that teaches computer science. As a foreigner undergrad, your only option will mostly likely be AMK/UAS (polytechnics), which aren't really universities. I don't know about options in Swedish, though.
Anyway, those AMK/UAS are more focused on the practical side of things. Think of them like upgraded vocational schools *. So be careful what you choose and how it aligns with your goals. If you want a real university degree (academia-research-Bachelor-of-Sciences type of deal) then stay away from Universities of Applied sciences AKA polytechnics/AMK/UAS.

Back to your programming question. It really varies between universities and what their region's requirements are. For example, Vaasa is the energy capital of Finland, and for that reason VAMK engineering programs have a lot of courses on engineering designs, electrical engineering, embedded systems, etc. Whichever you choose, will have a lot less theory and a lot more hands-on action. What you should do is read the curricula of each program very carefully and see possible majors and study paths as some of them do offer different paths such as software engineering or embedded systems (and many more)

Also, it seems to me that you're taking this too quickly without proper reading. If you read the second link you posted, you'll see that the degree is "Bachelor of Business Administration".. is it really what you want? It's not even a full bachelor's degree (only 210 ECTS).

* This is not taking a piss on them. I have studied in multiple Finnish polytechnics and I am currently studying in one.

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:55 pm

There are definitely students on the HaagaHelia BITE programme that do not speak Finnish and, as far as I know, the core curriculum is taught in English. There are electives in Finnish but I'm not aware of any courses in Swedish in Pasila. If you read the WebPages that you link to you you can see that it is possible to choose different study path eg more coding or more business- related stuff etc

12w · Post by **12w** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:11 pm

adnan wrote:
12w wrote:I read somewhere a while back that even if it says to be in english or swedish, there's still parts in finnish?
What you read is wrong. If it says the program is taught in English, then it's taught in English and that's it. Some optional courses might be taught in Finnish, but you won't be choosing those anyway.
Having that said, keep in mind that most of those programs do contain Finnish courses (teaching the Finnish language) that are usually taught in English.

12w wrote:which one contains more programming and less hardware?
Neither of the programs are "computer science". In fact, I don't know any English language bachelor's degree program in Finland that teaches computer science. As a foreigner undergrad, your only option will mostly likely be AMK/UAS (polytechnics), which aren't really universities. I don't know about options in Swedish, though.
Anyway, those AMK/UAS are more focused on the practical side of things. Think of them like upgraded vocational schools *. So be careful what you choose and how it aligns with your goals. If you want a real university degree (academia-research-Bachelor-of-Sciences type of deal) then stay away from Universities of Applied sciences AKA polytechnics/AMK/UAS.

Back to your programming question. It really varies between universities and what their region's requirements are. For example, Vaasa is the energy capital of Finland, and for that reason VAMK engineering programs have a lot of courses on engineering designs, electrical engineering, embedded systems, etc. Whichever you choose, will have a lot less theory and a lot more hands-on action. What you should do is read the curricula of each program very carefully.

Also, it seems to me that you're taking this too quickly without proper reading. If you read the second link you posted, you'll see that the degree is "Bachelor of Business Administration".. is it really what you want? It's not even a full bachelor's degree (only 210 ECTS).

* This is not taking a piss on them. I have studied in multiple Finnish polytechnics and I am currently studying in one.

Thank you for your reply.
About the links, those I found quickly on google - may have slipped in a mistake there. I have been looking into and planning this for atleast a year now and I'll apply next year.

Polytechnic schools are more aimed at teaching and preparation for a specific line of work? Would it be a bad choice to apply to one of those schools with an IT related course?

12w · Post by **12w** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:19 pm

adnan wrote:
12w wrote:I read somewhere a while back that even if it says to be in english or swedish, there's still parts in finnish?
What you read is wrong. If it says the program is taught in English, then it's taught in English and that's it. Some optional courses might be taught in Finnish, but you won't be choosing those anyway.
Having that said, keep in mind that most of those programs do contain Finnish courses (teaching the Finnish language) that are usually taught in English.

12w wrote:which one contains more programming and less hardware?
Neither of the programs are "computer science". In fact, I don't know any English language bachelor's degree program in Finland that teaches computer science. As a foreigner undergrad, your only option will mostly likely be AMK/UAS (polytechnics), which aren't really universities. I don't know about options in Swedish, though.
Anyway, those AMK/UAS are more focused on the practical side of things. Think of them like upgraded vocational schools *. So be careful what you choose and how it aligns with your goals. If you want a real university degree (academia-research-Bachelor-of-Sciences type of deal) then stay away from Universities of Applied sciences AKA polytechnics/AMK/UAS.

Back to your programming question. It really varies between universities and what their region's requirements are. For example, Vaasa is the energy capital of Finland, and for that reason VAMK engineering programs have a lot of courses on engineering designs, electrical engineering, embedded systems, etc. Whichever you choose, will have a lot less theory and a lot more hands-on action. What you should do is read the curricula of each program very carefully.

Also, it seems to me that you're taking this too quickly without proper reading. If you read the second link you posted, you'll see that the degree is "Bachelor of Business Administration".. is it really what you want? It's not even a full bachelor's degree (only 210 ECTS).

* This is not taking a piss on them. I have studied in multiple Finnish polytechnics and I am currently studying in one.

Sorry, I didn't add this to my post:
I also need to say that I am not too sure about how things works with higher education, what I believe is that polytechnics are more aimed at a specific line of work somewhat, and universities would be more be a broader knowledge?

Regardless, I'm not too sure what I can apply to. I'm just sure of my big interest of programming which I've been doing for many years, aswell as my goal to move to and live in Finland.
What I was thinking originally was to find the suitable schools with relevant education and apply to each of them and do the entrance exam and see how it goes?

interleukin · Post by **interleukin** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:01 am

12w wrote:
Regardless, I'm not too sure what I can apply to. I'm just sure of my big interest of programming which I've been doing for many years, aswell as my goal to move to and live in Finland.

The polytechnics teach you hands-on stuff, practical work. The Unis teach you theoretical things. You might get a deeper understanding of everything and be ready for an academic career, but your practical skills would be weaker. Do you want to be good at applied programming or do you want a theoretical background to programming, eg enabling you to develop new things?

12w · Post by **12w** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:20 pm

interleukin wrote:
12w wrote:
Regardless, I'm not too sure what I can apply to. I'm just sure of my big interest of programming which I've been doing for many years, aswell as my goal to move to and live in Finland.
The polytechnics teach you hands-on stuff, practical work. The Unis teach you theoretical things. You might get a deeper understanding of everything and be ready for an academic career, but your practical skills would be weaker. Do you want to be good at applied programming or do you want a theoretical background to programming, eg enabling you to develop new things?

I'm really not too sure, I guess whichever has more chances for interesting work which would be the second one?

http://www.metropolia.fi/en/apply/studi ... echnology/
"Bachelor of Engineering"
this is bachelor and 4 years, aswell as other schools like Arcada is 4 years and is polytechnic aswell. The school on Åland is 3.5 or 4 years.

Looking at for example swedish speaking university Åbo Akademi has 5 years education for
"Degree Programme in Information Technology, Computer Engineering, Bachelor of Science and Master of Science (3 + 2 years) - DIA admission".
It's only one year longer than both polytechnic schools above, although it's Bachelor of Science(and Master) instead of Bachelor of Engineering.

Would it be stupid if I just apply to universities and polytechnic schools, and if I get accepted to a university I'd go there otherwise polytechnic schools?
Or is it a huge choice and I should just focus on getting into one of them depending on what I want afterwards?

What I know is that I want to get a good education related to programming and computer systems in general that would lead to a job with various possibilities in the field afterwards, and I'd like to start studying asap(I intend to apply in 2017 as I wrote above).

edit: worth adding I said I've been doing programming for many years which might be an overstatement, I'm 20 but I've been interested in programming since half my life and I've been learning more since then.

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:56 pm

If you take a close look at the websites of eg Metropolia, Haaga-Helia etc. they have a lot of information about the courses and also the partnerships with working life. If you go to one of the UAS, you are required to do an internship of at least 100 days. Usually the final year thesis is a project which includes some kind of collaboration with a company or some other organisation, possibly the one where the internship was carried out. In my experience the students have no problem finding work placements (either in Finland and abroad). Throughout their studies, the students are involved in projects for companies and can earn extra credits this way. There is also a start-up school (business incubator for students who want to commercialise their own ideas). The focus is very much on developing skills for working life.

12w · Post by **12w** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:24 pm

Rosamunda wrote:If you take a close look at the websites of eg Metropolia, Haaga-Helia etc. they have a lot of information about the courses and also the partnerships with working life. If you go to one of the UAS, you are required to do an internship of at least 100 days. Usually the final year thesis is a project which includes some kind of collaboration with a company or some other organisation, possibly the one where the internship was carried out. In my experience the students have no problem finding work placements (either in Finland and abroad). Throughout their studies, the students are involved in projects for companies and can earn extra credits this way. There is also a start-up school (business incubator for students who want to commercialise their own ideas). The focus is very much on developing skills for working life.

Ok, so it's 2-3 years of actual studying in polytechnic schools(UAS?) and it's 5 years of full studying in university then?
What is your personal opinion, is it important to have made a decision between polytechnic school and university or is it fine to apply to both?
I don't have anything against studying, but nor am I in a rush to get a job really, with the knowledge I have now I think I will just apply to both and take university above polytechnic school, but if I don't get into a university I would go to polytechnics if I get that alternative.

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:50 pm

We have a saying "If you're not sure where you want to go, then all the roads are the correct ones".

Don't worry about it. Whether you pick Uni or Poly, it won't matter. Neither of them will teach you more than 10% of what you'll actually end up using in real work life. If you already can write a multi-class small Java app, then you're already in the top 2-3% of undergraduates in most Finnish education institutions. What does this mean? It means that those institutions will have very little to teach you what you think you'll learn (programming, etc.)

Look, you're young and unsure. It's normal. We've all been there.
After Google, Wikipedia, StackExchange/Stackoverflow, etc., higher education (specifically, IT/computer science) in the vast majority of educational institution is no longer about knowledge. You can now go to Coursera, grab a specialization route, and in 4-5 months you'll have knowledge surpassing anything you'll learn in a Finnish Poly. Consider higher education as a gateway to introduce you into academia, fundamental concepts in maths and physics, proper research, basics of engineering, and so on...
Once you look at it like that, Poly or Uni are both the same.

If you want my advice, I'd say think of it this way: Do you want to continue in academia (Msc, PhD, research, etc.)? Then go for a Uni. Anything other than that? Go for a Poly, finish those 3-4 years of study, put that degree on your CV, and never stop learning on your own.

sky2 · Post by **sky2** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:14 pm

12w wrote:1. I speak swedish and english, I wonder if this is enough to get past in schools that offer education in swedish/english?

Just to add a bit to Adnan's advice: If you're an European and not restricted to Finland only, you might want to check Swedish universities as well, which in my opinion are much better than Finnish (especially regarding the research). Universities like KTH, Chalmers have excellent computer science specialized programs.

Regarding programming, you don't really learn it by attending the lectures or reading the books, you learn it by practice so it depends on you.

AldenG · Post by **AldenG** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:29 pm

Well, the other version of that saying is:

If you don't know where you're going, you're likely to end up somewhere else.

tuttu · Post by **tuttu** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:35 pm

12w wrote:1. I speak swedish and english, I wonder if this is enough to get past in schools that offer education in swedish/english? I read somewhere a while back that even if it says to be in english or swedish, there's still parts in finnish?

if swedish is a serious option for you, you should check out åbo akademi (in turku/åbo):
http://www.abo.fi/student/
they even seem tohave some it related stuff (in english?):
https://research.it.abo.fi/

one thing i know for sure is, you won't need finnish there.

i think that a swedish university exists also in helsinki.

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:10 am

12w wrote: Ok, so it's 2-3 years of actual studying in polytechnic schools(UAS?) and it's 5 years of full studying in university then?
What is your personal opinion, is it important to have made a decision between polytechnic school and university or is it fine to apply to both?
I don't have anything against studying, but nor am I in a rush to get a job really, with the knowledge I have now I think I will just apply to both and take university above polytechnic school, but if I don't get into a university I would go to polytechnics if I get that alternative.

It's fine to apply to both but there are more EMI (English medium instruction) bachelors programmes available in the UAS than in the universities. Also, it is usually much harder to get a place on a Uni programme (depending on your school grades + entrance examination). In Finland it is possible to transfer from a UAS into a university (complicated but possible). If you're coming from outside the EU, note that fees are being introduced soon. Lappeenranta University already announced it will be charging 10K€/yr (Masters programmes) starting 2017. I guess this might actually make it easier to get a place (provided you have the cash).

http://yle.fi/uutiset/eun_ulkopuolelta_ ... oa/8547022

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:52 pm

Rosamunda wrote:are more EMI (English medium instruction) bachelors programmes available in the UAS than in the universities.

Small note: This is a slight understatement. English language bachelor programmes in universities in Finland are not only fewer than in UAS, they're very very rare. In fact, if you search the CIMO database (http://studynew.cimo.fi/df/index.html), you only found 2 in whole Finland.
The 2nd in the list even says on their page:

TUT offers Finland’s only University-level Bachelor’s degree programme taught in English in the field of technology.

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