Why move to Finland, not Sweden?
Toukokuu, how long have you lived in Britain?
People say that Helsinki is not Finland; London with about 25% foreigners - is not so representative of Britain.
There was an interesting article posted on this site about marriages between Finns and foreigners... British guys were pretty high up for marrying Finnish women (Germans then US were also pretty high), I don't think this is a coincidence.
IMHO we have more in common than you believe.
People say that Helsinki is not Finland; London with about 25% foreigners - is not so representative of Britain.
There was an interesting article posted on this site about marriages between Finns and foreigners... British guys were pretty high up for marrying Finnish women (Germans then US were also pretty high), I don't think this is a coincidence.
IMHO we have more in common than you believe.
Finland and Sweden
Dear Sinikala and others,
I have lived 3 years in London. I do sincerely agree that Britain is not London as little as Helsinki is the same as Finland. I am curious to get experiences from other sites from this densely populated country. Well, interesting, I did not know that Britishmen are that eager to marry Finnish girls! Sinikala, do you then a different experience of Britain/London?
About the differences between Finland and Sweden, it is interesting to listen what other people tell you. I know that comparing countries is not easy, because Sweden is not Stockholm, either. Personally, I like Gothenburg. I heard about a little research that found out that Gothenburg is equal to Swedish Lapland in the time required that people start to talk to each other in public transport for example - it did not take that long. Otherwise, Stockholm and southern Sweden did not rate that well. And Gothenburg area has 600.000 inhabitants - but still has nearly the athmosphere of countryside.
Today on the aeroplane a Britishman who has lived 3 years in Gothenburg told that the major cultural difference between Britain and Sweden is that in Sweden people do not spontaneously talk to each other - not to people they do not know. He also implied that there is lack of polite habits. He and his wife had found this really hard. He thought that Finnish people are even more silent, but on the other hand they had the habit of being straightforward.
Well, I think that it is very much up to you and me to start discussion- it is often so that it is you who has to start to talk. Then it may go well with Nordic people.
And a Asian guy, who had been studying in Gothenburg, found that Finnish people are much more open that Swedish. He had just met some Finnish guy who soon called him his best friend (hope it was not because of Kossu).
My English teacher (Irish born but London based) told that when she visited southern Sweden it was really hard that Swedish people only say very few things. She told that she was happy to meet Finnish people there in Skane. In a way , it saved her holiday.
I do not like generalisations, the impression of a country is very much up to which inviduals you happen to meet. If my idea of Brazil would base on my experiences about 5 people I have been involved with, it would be a very mixed view. The common factor is that people are quite relaxed, but in other factors and dimensions, they have been like day and night. From "one of the most emotional and wonderful person in the world" - to "Oh God, I managed this situation(got rid of this person)!"
I have lived 3 years in London. I do sincerely agree that Britain is not London as little as Helsinki is the same as Finland. I am curious to get experiences from other sites from this densely populated country. Well, interesting, I did not know that Britishmen are that eager to marry Finnish girls! Sinikala, do you then a different experience of Britain/London?
About the differences between Finland and Sweden, it is interesting to listen what other people tell you. I know that comparing countries is not easy, because Sweden is not Stockholm, either. Personally, I like Gothenburg. I heard about a little research that found out that Gothenburg is equal to Swedish Lapland in the time required that people start to talk to each other in public transport for example - it did not take that long. Otherwise, Stockholm and southern Sweden did not rate that well. And Gothenburg area has 600.000 inhabitants - but still has nearly the athmosphere of countryside.
Today on the aeroplane a Britishman who has lived 3 years in Gothenburg told that the major cultural difference between Britain and Sweden is that in Sweden people do not spontaneously talk to each other - not to people they do not know. He also implied that there is lack of polite habits. He and his wife had found this really hard. He thought that Finnish people are even more silent, but on the other hand they had the habit of being straightforward.
Well, I think that it is very much up to you and me to start discussion- it is often so that it is you who has to start to talk. Then it may go well with Nordic people.
And a Asian guy, who had been studying in Gothenburg, found that Finnish people are much more open that Swedish. He had just met some Finnish guy who soon called him his best friend (hope it was not because of Kossu).
My English teacher (Irish born but London based) told that when she visited southern Sweden it was really hard that Swedish people only say very few things. She told that she was happy to meet Finnish people there in Skane. In a way , it saved her holiday.
I do not like generalisations, the impression of a country is very much up to which inviduals you happen to meet. If my idea of Brazil would base on my experiences about 5 people I have been involved with, it would be a very mixed view. The common factor is that people are quite relaxed, but in other factors and dimensions, they have been like day and night. From "one of the most emotional and wonderful person in the world" - to "Oh God, I managed this situation(got rid of this person)!"
Last edited by toukokuu on Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Dude, this does not necessarily make Britain and Finland similar. Actually on that list, Turks are the second. Well, that is probably because Turkey is a popular holiday destination though. And, usually young Finnish girls are keen to be with more exotic people, not with the people similar to them. Though this might happen during the time they would like to experience life and it can change in the following years.sinikala wrote:There was an interesting article posted on this site about marriages between Finns and foreigners... British guys were pretty high up for marrying Finnish women (Germans then US were also pretty high), I don't think this is a coincidence.
On the other hand, I agree that Britain is similar to Finland than many other countries but now that we are discussing about the differences between Sweden and Finland, one can find more differences between Britain and Finland than the differences between Finland and Sweden.
Last edited by baris on Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:21 am, edited 4 times in total.
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur."
Dear geniedevil,
Thanks for your comments. Very much appreciated, and your point about Denmark was good!
But could you pls explain a little more why do you find that the U.S. universities are much better than Finnish and Swedish?And have you studied in the U.S. yourself? I guess you mean here more top research than degree studies?
cheers, toukokuu
Thanks for your comments. Very much appreciated, and your point about Denmark was good!
But could you pls explain a little more why do you find that the U.S. universities are much better than Finnish and Swedish?And have you studied in the U.S. yourself? I guess you mean here more top research than degree studies?
cheers, toukokuu
Re: Finland and Sweden
Comparison of Finland with Britian was not the focus of my initial post, only a small line tagged to the end.toukokuu wrote:Dear Sinikala and others,
I have lived 3 years in London. I do sincerely agree that Britain is not London as little as Helsinki is the same as Finland. I am curious to get experiences from other sites from this densely populated country. Well, interesting, I did not know that Britishmen are that eager to marry Finnish girls! Sinikala, do you then a different experience of Britain/London?
But as you ask...
do I have a differnt experience of Britain? Yes. Of London? No.I lived in London for a year (and then as a child) but I have visited quite often. Southerners have a reputation of being rather rude & superficial. Northerners have a reputation for being friendly but uncultured, both are generalisations but are IMHO not so far from the truth. Personally I prefer Manchester, Birmingham & Liverpool over London any day. London is too big to be a pleasant place to live. Try living North of the Watford Gap, you'll find things quite different.
To go back to your earlier post... hygiene 20-30 years behind... can you enlarge?
Difficulties in getting things done? What sort of things? Bearing in mind that foreigners almost always complain, simply because the way of doing things is not what they are used to.
Differences in mentality perhaps, but I suggest that there are more similarities than differences between Britains and Finns.
Baris - obviously I think there are more similarities between Swedes & Finns, I did say that the differences are small in my original post.
geniedevil, I actually do not agree with your view:
"Toukokuu, when we say "good university", it means a university which is good academically-in the research field. Undergraduate studies almost never represent the quality of a university; also, jobs that their students get, is not the dominating index in evaluating a university. The ultimate standard for universities, is how good they have done in the research area (what PhDs and Profs do). "
A good university provides good ecucation and quality of teaching. Good academic level is also good teaching, not only publications. And this has to be true both for undergraduate and postgraduate students. We have discussed university rankings on these webpages before , and I repeat that I studied a postgrad degree at a one toplisted European university. The level of teaching was just sad. Not that there were not some pearls, but the level was too switching, and some teachers had a narrow knowledge base.As a whole, a good try but resulted in a big mess from their side.Furthermore, at a good university the students are also treated well. You can not only focus on the academic - it is also about people. The ranking lists are unfortunately biased, and money talks.
But to your point that the academic levels in the U.S.A would be better than at Oxford University, for example, not considering the ranking lists, but teachingwise, I guess there is some truth there. I have not studied in the U.S. but participated in congresses in seminars, and at least the levels in these have been really high.
BTW, are you from Europe yourself then? How are the universities in your country of origin?
thanks, toukokuu
"Toukokuu, when we say "good university", it means a university which is good academically-in the research field. Undergraduate studies almost never represent the quality of a university; also, jobs that their students get, is not the dominating index in evaluating a university. The ultimate standard for universities, is how good they have done in the research area (what PhDs and Profs do). "
A good university provides good ecucation and quality of teaching. Good academic level is also good teaching, not only publications. And this has to be true both for undergraduate and postgraduate students. We have discussed university rankings on these webpages before , and I repeat that I studied a postgrad degree at a one toplisted European university. The level of teaching was just sad. Not that there were not some pearls, but the level was too switching, and some teachers had a narrow knowledge base.As a whole, a good try but resulted in a big mess from their side.Furthermore, at a good university the students are also treated well. You can not only focus on the academic - it is also about people. The ranking lists are unfortunately biased, and money talks.
But to your point that the academic levels in the U.S.A would be better than at Oxford University, for example, not considering the ranking lists, but teachingwise, I guess there is some truth there. I have not studied in the U.S. but participated in congresses in seminars, and at least the levels in these have been really high.
BTW, are you from Europe yourself then? How are the universities in your country of origin?
thanks, toukokuu
Last edited by toukokuu on Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Hank W.
- The Motorhead
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The difference in the "standard of education" though is that the janitor of princeton probably passed high school without knowing how to read; while the janitor of Helsinki University probably can spell English better than your average US college student.
Its not the highest peaks that count, its the depth of the valleys in between.
Its not the highest peaks that count, its the depth of the valleys in between.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
Hi.
There is a huge difference between Sweden and Finland. Finland is a tiny country where all the changes come from abroad.
A motion picture depicts its society. If you compare Kaurismäki’s movie and Swedish film “Masjävlar – Takaisin maalle”, you will see that they are different like the sun and the moon even though they both picture serious social themes.
And films like “Zozo”, which is the official Swedish entry to the Academy competition in 2006, would hardly come out of Finland, I am sorry to say.
t, masao
There is a huge difference between Sweden and Finland. Finland is a tiny country where all the changes come from abroad.
A motion picture depicts its society. If you compare Kaurismäki’s movie and Swedish film “Masjävlar – Takaisin maalle”, you will see that they are different like the sun and the moon even though they both picture serious social themes.
And films like “Zozo”, which is the official Swedish entry to the Academy competition in 2006, would hardly come out of Finland, I am sorry to say.
t, masao
Bone, Thugs, 'n' Harmony
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Hank W.
- The Motorhead
- Posts: 29973
- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 10:00 pm
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Those who know, do.geniedevil wrote:I think one thing must be made clear here, in Finnish universities, whether students can understand the teaching is the students' problem, not the prof's.
Those who don't know how to do, teach.
I'd be very upset of being promoted. For me it would mean becoming a bureaucrat doing papers with rubber stamps. I rather do "real work".geniedevil wrote:But from the long-term view, those with a master of science from HUT always get promoted faster and higher than those from a polytechnic.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
Finland vs Sweden
Dear geniedevil,
I understand what you say about teaching in HUT - it does not sound very impressive. But these things, nowadays, are monitored as well. They are becoming more and more important. Quality assessment of universities in done by external assessors, and everything from the quality of teaching, student happiness to graduation rates are included. I wish to find more information about this, and some statistics from the web, if possible. These are official and open figures, and are being published in some form. But, as I said, I will try to find out more.
To Masao, Finland is a tiny country. It is a fact. But it includes both good and less good aspects. But referring to Kaurismaki film in this issue - I do not quite understand your point. Kaurismaki films are like poems or stories, and very psychological and philosophical.With social messages, as well. I have not seen the Swedish film, but Swedes do good films, so that is something to look forward to.
To Sinikala, I am not sure if I can go into discussion about hygiene in LOndon here. There would be a lot to say, and some things are uqly to write. Maybe some other forum?
I understand what you say about teaching in HUT - it does not sound very impressive. But these things, nowadays, are monitored as well. They are becoming more and more important. Quality assessment of universities in done by external assessors, and everything from the quality of teaching, student happiness to graduation rates are included. I wish to find more information about this, and some statistics from the web, if possible. These are official and open figures, and are being published in some form. But, as I said, I will try to find out more.
Here we have a difference in mentality. Undergraduate degree should include theory, basics about research philosophy and ethics. My degree included a lot. This is partly because our high schools are already quite theoretical. The other point is, that Finnish people are introverted thinkers. One relative of mine studied both in Stockholm and Helsinki, and he thought that everyone was thinking and philosophising in Helsinki. In Stockholm things and people were more practical.geniedevil wrote:A university's undergraduate level, usually, is meant for vocational education, but in Finland even undergraduate level in a university is about theory and research, which is ridiculous for those who wish to get a degree for work only. it is true.
To Masao, Finland is a tiny country. It is a fact. But it includes both good and less good aspects. But referring to Kaurismaki film in this issue - I do not quite understand your point. Kaurismaki films are like poems or stories, and very psychological and philosophical.With social messages, as well. I have not seen the Swedish film, but Swedes do good films, so that is something to look forward to.
To Sinikala, I am not sure if I can go into discussion about hygiene in LOndon here. There would be a lot to say, and some things are uqly to write. Maybe some other forum?
Funny, I watched Masjävlar and thought that it described a mentality very much like Finland and that it in itself was quite a Finnish type of movie. Dalarna of course partly consists of Finnish Woods, so maybe no surprise there. Well, I have never liked Kaurismäki movies anyway, but they are supposed to be internationally quite popular with the crowds that would go for art house movies. In many ways all ways of living are fundamentally universal as all ways of living are local. Sometimes being from a "dominant" culture or a big nation is also restricting as you get the illusion that this is all there is. In a small country you usually know better automatically (hmm, I guess we have madly still tried here in isolated Finland). Hymiö.masao wrote:Hi.
There is a huge difference between Sweden and Finland. Finland is a tiny country where all the changes come from abroad.
A motion picture depicts its society. If you compare Kaurismäki’s movie and Swedish film “Masjävlar – Takaisin maalle”, you will see that they are different like the sun and the moon even though they both picture serious social themes.
And films like “Zozo”, which is the official Swedish entry to the Academy competition in 2006, would hardly come out of Finland, I am sorry to say.t, masao
One interesting difference with Sweden is today - we have a very emotional relationship with our national independence, it having been desperately threatened by Stalin and Hitler etc. etc. Mainland Sweden I think was occupied last time in the 16th century by Danes, and their last war was in 1810, against the Norwegians... They don't have the same cultural and national sense of precariousness that Finns have and are more secure and self-confident of their identity. Their national day concequently is a fairly low key affair. I don't think they even officially have had it till quite recently. Of course their sausages are hopeless and often their sense of humour is quite limited. And sour herring... My God.
Hi.
While surfing MTV3 website this morning, I found the following article. Maybe some of you are interested. Whoever wants to come here, this is the attitude you will encounter.
Summaries in English:
1. The majority of the Finns (60%) think that at the moment there are suitable number of immigrants in Finland
2. 16% of the Finns think that the immigrants are already too many here.
3. 20% of the Finns would like to take more immigrants here.
4. The sampling size is 1000 and the confidence limit +-3%.
Note that currently the immigrants are about 2% of the whole population.
t, masao
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Enemmistön mielestä maahanmuuttajia on sopivasti
06.12.2005 05:35
Lisää maahanmuuttajia ottaisi joka viides suomalainen, 16 prosentin mielestä heitä on liikaa jo nykyisellään.
Enemmistö suomalaisista pitäisi maahanmuttajien määrän entisellään.
Helsingin Sanomien tutkimus kertoo, että 60 prosenttia kansalaisista katsoo maahanmuuttajia olevan nyt sopiva määrä. Lisää maahanmuuttajia ottaisi joka viides, kun 16 prosenttia on sitä mieltä, että heitä on jo liikaa.
Eri puolueiden kannattajista ainoastaan vihreiden tukijat toivovat Suomeen nykyistä enemmän maahanmuuttajia. Muiden aatteiden kannattajista enemmistö tyytyisi nykyiseen määrään.
Lähes kaikki kyselyyn vastaajat ovat sitä mieltä, että maahanmuuttajien pitäisi asua samoilla alueilla kantaväestön kanssa.
Suomen Gallupin tekemään kyselyyn vastasi viime kuun lopulla tuhat suomalaista. Kyselyn virhemarginaali on kolme prosenttiyksikköäkumpaankin suuntaan.
(MTV3)
While surfing MTV3 website this morning, I found the following article. Maybe some of you are interested. Whoever wants to come here, this is the attitude you will encounter.
Summaries in English:
1. The majority of the Finns (60%) think that at the moment there are suitable number of immigrants in Finland
2. 16% of the Finns think that the immigrants are already too many here.
3. 20% of the Finns would like to take more immigrants here.
4. The sampling size is 1000 and the confidence limit +-3%.
Note that currently the immigrants are about 2% of the whole population.
t, masao
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enemmistön mielestä maahanmuuttajia on sopivasti
06.12.2005 05:35
Lisää maahanmuuttajia ottaisi joka viides suomalainen, 16 prosentin mielestä heitä on liikaa jo nykyisellään.
Enemmistö suomalaisista pitäisi maahanmuttajien määrän entisellään.
Helsingin Sanomien tutkimus kertoo, että 60 prosenttia kansalaisista katsoo maahanmuuttajia olevan nyt sopiva määrä. Lisää maahanmuuttajia ottaisi joka viides, kun 16 prosenttia on sitä mieltä, että heitä on jo liikaa.
Eri puolueiden kannattajista ainoastaan vihreiden tukijat toivovat Suomeen nykyistä enemmän maahanmuuttajia. Muiden aatteiden kannattajista enemmistö tyytyisi nykyiseen määrään.
Lähes kaikki kyselyyn vastaajat ovat sitä mieltä, että maahanmuuttajien pitäisi asua samoilla alueilla kantaväestön kanssa.
Suomen Gallupin tekemään kyselyyn vastasi viime kuun lopulla tuhat suomalaista. Kyselyn virhemarginaali on kolme prosenttiyksikköäkumpaankin suuntaan.
(MTV3)
Bone, Thugs, 'n' Harmony
Dear Masao,
I think you mean that Finland has the mentality of a tiny country, because when it comes for population, Sweden and other Scandinavian countries are also tiny.
I think that one explanation for that we have not wanted so many refugees or immigrants is because of our history, which has been referred to in this discussion. The previous generations were very much hurt by the war. Fathers died or were wounded in the front, mothers lived in poverty and had to send their kids as war children to Sweden , without knowing the language.
The consequences for mental well being have been vast, and explains maybe a part of the frequent mental health problems in our country. We were a very poor nation for a long time, as well. Not that other countries were not influenced by the second world war, but for us there was also the past of foreign occupation/governance.
Therefore, it is little difficult compare our situation considering immigration with other Scandinavian countries. And attitudes change slowly. The positive thing in the gallup was the majority thought that there were a sufficient number of immigrants/they did not think there are too much of them. I think that 10 years ago the attitude was much more closed/ people thought that there are too many immigrants. Something is happening. And most of the presidential candidates wish more immigrants / as I also do.
The film the Best of Mothers by Klaus Haro, who btw is on tv late tonight, tells a story about one Finnish war child. I recommend it to anyone who wants to understand our country more. It is in Finnish and Swedish. Well done film and I have heard something about Oscar candidacy, anyone else heard this...
A male friend of mine asked if I ever have met a humble Swede. I have met, but Finnish people often find the Swedes proud. The Swedes, on the other hand find us humble and thankful and joke about that. In the above mentioned film, the character of the Swedish mother implies a little bit of the pride and hardness.
When it comes to immigrants in Sweden, I think that there are less racistic incidents but many immigrants or refugees find it mentally difficult to live in Sweden. They feel that the Swedes avoid them but at the same time they appreciate the welfare system /this is what I read in a study.I recently heard a professor from Middle East saying that it is boring in Sweden. A country that has had at least 200 years of constant peace is boring for him. He preferred his unstable country / there was more a taste of life there.
Masao, I have understood that you are from Japan or Korea. How are the immigration rates in your country then
I think you mean that Finland has the mentality of a tiny country, because when it comes for population, Sweden and other Scandinavian countries are also tiny.
I think that one explanation for that we have not wanted so many refugees or immigrants is because of our history, which has been referred to in this discussion. The previous generations were very much hurt by the war. Fathers died or were wounded in the front, mothers lived in poverty and had to send their kids as war children to Sweden , without knowing the language.
The consequences for mental well being have been vast, and explains maybe a part of the frequent mental health problems in our country. We were a very poor nation for a long time, as well. Not that other countries were not influenced by the second world war, but for us there was also the past of foreign occupation/governance.
Therefore, it is little difficult compare our situation considering immigration with other Scandinavian countries. And attitudes change slowly. The positive thing in the gallup was the majority thought that there were a sufficient number of immigrants/they did not think there are too much of them. I think that 10 years ago the attitude was much more closed/ people thought that there are too many immigrants. Something is happening. And most of the presidential candidates wish more immigrants / as I also do.
The film the Best of Mothers by Klaus Haro, who btw is on tv late tonight, tells a story about one Finnish war child. I recommend it to anyone who wants to understand our country more. It is in Finnish and Swedish. Well done film and I have heard something about Oscar candidacy, anyone else heard this...
A male friend of mine asked if I ever have met a humble Swede. I have met, but Finnish people often find the Swedes proud. The Swedes, on the other hand find us humble and thankful and joke about that. In the above mentioned film, the character of the Swedish mother implies a little bit of the pride and hardness.
When it comes to immigrants in Sweden, I think that there are less racistic incidents but many immigrants or refugees find it mentally difficult to live in Sweden. They feel that the Swedes avoid them but at the same time they appreciate the welfare system /this is what I read in a study.I recently heard a professor from Middle East saying that it is boring in Sweden. A country that has had at least 200 years of constant peace is boring for him. He preferred his unstable country / there was more a taste of life there.
Masao, I have understood that you are from Japan or Korea. How are the immigration rates in your country then
Last edited by toukokuu on Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
