Very confused as to all of the negativity here on jobs

[rinso]

I found this great article on Foreign workers in Finland:
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Number ... 5231848247

It indeed gives a good impression of the labour market for foreigners:
- blue collar jobs (with specialized training)
- berry picking
- specialized IT jobs
- foreign based employers (tax evasion) and temporary contracts

[shrecher]

That Fishy is absolutely spot on. The playing field is never level for immigrants in any country, never was, never will be. Having qualifications, references and solid experience isn't enough to achieve here in Finland. You need to be able to analyse the local job market, then analyse yourself, identifying what exactly you CAN do better than the locals.

As person which sometimes look in CV for hiring a new people in IT, I could say you, the following items to pay attention:
- experience
- education
- skills
- references

it doesn't matter a race, a native language, etc or how cadicate "analysed the local job market". If he/she missing the four above, the CV is drained out.

[Karhunkoski]

That Fishy is absolutely spot on. The playing field is never level for immigrants in any country, never was, never will be. Having qualifications, references and solid experience isn't enough to achieve here in Finland. You need to be able to analyse the local job market, then analyse yourself, identifying what exactly you CAN do better than the locals.

As person which sometimes look in CV for hiring a new people in IT, I could say you, the following items to pay attention:
- experience
- education
- skills
- references

it doesn't matter a race, a native language, etc or how cadicate "analysed the local job market". If he/she missing the four above, the CV is drained out.

IT is not reflective of the overall job market.

[shrecher]

IT is not reflective of the overall job market.

do you think that geographist/doctor/translator/carpenter will look for something else? It is "common sense" requirements.

[Karhunkoski]

IT is not reflective of the overall job market.

do you think that geographist/doctor/translator/carpenter will look for something else? It is "common sense" requirements.

Look here Mr schrecher, you're inability to read what people write before commenting is rather irritating.

I do not disagree that qualifications, reference and experience are necessary, look I even wrote it here:

Having qualifications, references and solid experience isn't enough to achieve here in Finland.

What I am saying (similar to Fishy earlier), is that THESE THINGS ARE OFTEN NOT ENOUGH. You need to analyse the local job market too.

Clear now?

[shrecher]

What I am saying (similar to Fishy earlier), is that THESE THINGS ARE OFTEN NOT ENOUGH. You need to analyse the local job market too.

Clear now?

Take it easy. See what I wrote you

it doesn't matter ... or how cadicate "analysed the local job market".

It is important only
skills, education, experience, references. You don't need "to analyse the local job market", if you have the four above.

[Hank W.]

Well, since Finnish people are also Caucasians

No we're not... or do you see cossacks riding around?

And I knew/know I wouldn't/won't get slapped in the face with job offers

I think if you put on a cossack hat and start dancing caucasian dances they might throw you some money

[Karhunkoski]

It is important only
skills, education, experience, references. You don't need "to analyse the local job market", if you have the four above.

My friend schrecher, I still disagree. There are plenty of cases here in Finland where an immigrant has "skills, education, experience, references" and still no work. In these cases it is important to analyse both your own skill set and the local job market, the aim being to find something that you can do that perhaps the locals cannot. If a native Finn and a foreigner go for a job with similar "skills, education, experience, references", the Finn will get it 9 times from 10. The foreigner needs something extra to compete. Analysis of self and job market can help find this.

We clearly disagree, let's await other comments........

[shrecher]

We clearly disagree, let's await other comments........

:BEER: fine, it is Friday.

[sammy]

I think if you put on a cossack hat and start dancing caucasian dances they might throw you some money

caveat: I belive the last cossack hat fashion was both heralded (and, simultaneously, given the death-blow) by the notorious Mr "Singing Tea Cozy" Viktor Klimenko...

If a native Finn and a foreigner go for a job with similar "skills, education, experience, references", the Finn will get it 9 times from 10.

Hmm that may be true, but you must also remember that there may be 69 other Finnish applicants as well, who do not get the job, regardless of whether the actual lucky one is Finnish or 'foreign'. So in that sense, the chances of getting any job that is applied for by dozens (or even hundreds) of job seekers would not be considerably higher for any single applicant, even if he/she happens to be Finnish...

...this is not of course an excuse for discrimination, just something that's good to remember. Finnishness as such saves few people from disappointment in job seeking situations...

[Karhunkoski]

I'll rephrase.

If two people applied for a job, both had matching skills, qualifications etc. One is a Finn, one isn't. If it is a Finn who is doing the recruiting, 9 times from 10 the Finnish applicant will get the job. You can't cloud it with 69 other applicants

I just read what I wrote, it's so obvious to anyone with any experience of living in Finland that I feel borderline daft even pressing "Submit"

[DMC]

shrecher wrote:
> It is important only
skills, education, experience, references.
> You don't need "to analyse the local job market", if you have the four above.

It doesn't matter what skills, education, experience & references you have if they relate to jobs for which there is just no local demand. Unless you analyse the local job market, how do you know which, if any, of your abilities are marketable? How do you decide which to emphasise in your applications?
Even if your skills, education, experience & references relate to a high-demand job, if you don't analyse the job market, how will you find companies to whom you should apply?
Having the skills, education, experience & references to get a job is just the start. You have to work at getting a job (in Finland or anywhere else) and analysing the local job market is an important part of that.

[sammy]

You can't cloud it with 69 other applicants

Hmm, I do see it sounds a bit daft, and it is obvious, agreed. The sole reason I wished to point out the existence of the "69 other applicants" is that 'being foreign' is perhaps not always the ONLY or the MAIN reason that a job application fails - I've occasionally bumped into opinions in the line of "what's the use of trying - because I'm a foreigner, I can't succeed". This simplification can turn into a self-defeatist attitude, since it's possible amidst the disappointments to forget that being turned down, possibly quite a few times before one is even called into an interview, is unfortunately part & parcel of job seeking - regardless of your nationality!

I am assured that those who have gone through this find the "information" about as interesting and novel than the phrase "bears sh/t in the woods", but you shouldn't underestimate the ability of first-timers to conjure up false expectations concerning their own 'unique skills' that surely land them the first job they seek

Btw, I can't think of a single job nowadays that would only attract two applicants

[Karhunkoski]

is that 'being foreign' is perhaps not always the ONLY or the MAIN reason that a job application fails - I've occasionally bumped into opinions in the line of "what's the use of trying - because I'm a foreigner, I can't succeed". This simplification can turn into a self-defeatist attitude, since it's possible amidst the disappointments to forget that being turned down, possibly quite a few times before one is even called into an interview, is unfortunately part & parcel of job seeking - regardless of your nationality!

Couldn't agree more

Too many people blame the fact they are foreign on the lack of success, but it goes back to what I tried to say earlier, as a foreigner you need more than just qualifications, experience and references.........you can greatly increase the chance of success by doing some analysis to find out where and doing what will give you the best chance of success. The bright kids do this analysis even in their home country, even more important here!

[blaugrau]

I too don't think that it's the being foreign that complicates the job hunt -- but the high correlation between being foreign and not speaking finnish fluently. My impression is that the foreignness is less important when one speaks fluent Finnish. Of course, you can never exclude certain racist attitudes (not just in Finland but everywhere) but I think the foreignness itself doens't explain foreigners' problems on the labour market here.

So i think that third variable "finnish skills" is the actual independent variable, while foreignness enters in just a spurious correlation with the job market problems..