Very confused as to all of the negativity here on jobs

[MC Deli]

...sorry to labour the point...

The original post was asking why there is negativity about the job market for foreigners. Of course not speaking Finnish is going to be a problem if the post requires Finnish. I think there is something in comparing countries.

In the UK the job market is flooded with migrants and immigrants. Employers have, for years, been employing foreign workers in all fields. It is the cultural norm. It is probably aided by the fact that many working immigrant populations in the UK are tagged with cultural stereotypes that reflect positive attributes (Polish = hard working, Australian = good humoured).

Then you come to Finland. There are very few immigrants. The immigrant populations have been tagged with less than flattering stereotypes - we can generalise and cover the Finnish perceptions of Russians, Estonians and Somalians in another topic. Generalising again and bearing in mind how conscientious, thoughtful and diligent Finns tend to be in the workplace - this can make English, Americans and Australians seem brash, loud and difficult. And I think it has seomthing to do with why Finnish companies are reluctant to employ foreigners (especially a token foreigner) even when they need native language skills.

[sammy]

MC Deli, carrying on a bit with gross generalisations - I'd say, looking at the nationalities you mentioned from a slightly different angle, the following is also at least partially true:

Whereas "Russians, Estonians and Somalians" hardly ever have the presupposition that you can easily land a job if you only speak your native language, the "English, Americans and Australians" often seem to follow the logic a) most Finns understand English so it MUST follow b) it's no problem at all to find a job even if I only know English.

You might playfully call that "the curse of a lingua franca" In the UK, of course, it sort of works the other way around, since the lingua franca also happens to be "the" language of the country... I would presume that most of the immigrants in the UK, well at least those that are employed "to all fields", know the basics of English already before entering the country. Additionally, UK already has a long history of immigration.

Keeping that in mind, comparing these two countries may not be a very fruitful idea. In a way I believe it would make much more sense to compare Finland to another non-English speaking country like e.g. Sweden, and try and fathom why they did so well in the Migrant Policy Index (where, strangely enough, UK was only in the 9th place in the overall ranking, behind Sweden, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, Finland, Canada, Italy and Norway - in this order). And mind you, Finland just about managed to outscore UK in the labour market access part of that index.*

Surely there must be some mistake somewhere?

Be as it may, there's still a lot to be done in Finland re: the policies concerning immigrants and their inclusion (job-wise and language-wise for a start!)

*) btw AFAIK the index concerns migrants coming from outside the EU only, the so-calld third country nationals!

[rinso]

Surely there must be some mistake somewhere?

The index looks upon the "official" policies, not the practice in the field.

[Hank W.]

So i think that third variable "finnish skills" is the actual independent variable, while foreignness enters in just a spurious correlation

Ah, but as I've said before its nothing to do with "speaking Finnish" but "acting Finnish". So like you go ahead and hire a "foreigner" to a "Finnish" workplace, all of a sudden you need to re-think your "self-evident" say company little-christmas party with beer, pork and naked sauna... so in case someone "speaks Finnish" they by all probability have been long enough in thew country the also "think Finnish" so you don't need to explain them "things everybody knows"...

[olofsson]

So i think that third variable "finnish skills" is the actual independent variable, while foreignness enters in just a spurious correlation with the job market problems..

This is certainly right, but don't forget the cultural competence.
In Finland cultural diversity is not appreciated per se, unless exceptionally for targeting a certain foreign market. This is a difference when compared to many other countries, although not when comparing to the closest neighboring ones.

[Hank W.]

Well, we still think Swedes "diskutera" too much

[olofsson]

Well, we still think Swedes "diskutera" too much

Not only you - me too!

[Karhunkoski]

I would presume that most of the immigrants in the UK, well at least those that are employed "to all fields", know the basics of English already before entering the country.

This is (at least in my experience) true in the UK. English as a language is of course quite possible to learn outside of England. Unfortunately (unless you have Finnish parents), Finnish is very difficult to learn outside of Finland, and will therefore continue to be the main barrier to Finland being able to attract decent labour to replace those Finns who have left. There just aren't enough people willing to sacrifice 2 years full time to learn the language.

[raamv]

Okie okei..I gotta jump in jump in the frozen lake after the Sauna!!

The fact remains that UK Like the US is more like a melting pot of foreigners than the rest of Europe..
The fact remains that UK has had a long history of importing immigrants from its conquered countries than any other country remains true ( also true with France in this case).
Then there is an unseen Class-based society where Immigrant classes are a little less than the normal classes than the elegant class..
Finland OTOH is very new to any sort of Immigration let alone emigration..So its poliices and models generally follow its previous conqueror from the West...albeit with a long time gap..
and then complicate this with the strange culture that has managed to exist and survive for a couple of ice ages because of sisu. Its hardened and time tested and proved to not change that much..cos of history..
So, there comes a Latvian clueless about Finnish or English applying for a job against a Finn, a (new)Brit and an (new)American for the prestigious job of a Financial analyst in a Finnish company focusing on the OMX Bourse..
Who do you think that the job will go to now? The Finn of course..cos no matter how qualified the others are its the Finn who wins..
Now give them American and the Brit a few years to enrol in a Finnish course and learn some Finnish and some toning down of their born-with culture, Lo and Behold, they re selected for the next round if any..and the Latvian who is EU, close to Finland, is lost out to the Cleaner's job because of Lack of Finnish Culture and Language..

[shrecher]

Who do you think that the job will go to now? The Finn of course..cos no matter how qualified the others are its the Finn who wins..

I think you simply don't want to do anything to become better, grow as professional. You find anybody else guilty in failure to find a work except you. You blame language, some un-existing nationalism, whatever else, except the lack of passion. With such attitude I very wondering why do you come here. Finland offers enormous amount of different courses in different specialties. You just sit on your ass and do nothing.

[olofsson]

Who do you think that the job will go to now? The Finn of course..cos no matter how qualified the others are its the Finn who wins..

I think you simply don't want to do anything to become better, grow as professional. You find anybody else guilty in failure to find a work except you. You blame language, some un-existing nationalism, whatever else, except the lack of passion. With such attitude I very wondering why do you come here. Finland offers enormous amount of different courses in different specialties. You just sit on your ass and do nothing.

I know absolutely nothing about raamv as a person, but I agree with his analysis. This is how it works in Finland just like in Germany or in Denmark or in Sweden, culturally related nearby countries that I have first hand knowledge from.

Immigrants have a handicap that has to be compensated for.
One way or another.

[shrecher]

Immigrants have a handicap that has to be compensated for.
One way or another.

Exceed in qualification the locals, be a star and ask miserable salary. Fair enough. Average people have no way here.
The same in US. To get H1B person should be best of the best and cheap.

[rinso]

When I used to select people I asked myself:
1 can he/she do the job properly ?
2 does he/she fit in the team ?
3 what are his/her potential developments ?
4 who has some interesting extras ?
When it comes to point 2 anybody from a different culture (foreigners especial, but also working cultures) has a handicap. He/she needs to over compensate on other points.
And even if he/she does, that is often not enough. Only after a company becomes more a mix of cultures, this becomes less of an issue.

[Hank W.]

1 can he/she do the job properly ?
2 does he/she fit in the team ?
3 what are his/her potential developments ?
4 who has some interesting extras ?

The 2. and 4. though sometime can outweigh each other. It all depends on the profession itself, how much of the interaction is done locally and how much globally. Some professions you just look for the 1. as there isn't anybody around with that specific skillset. You'll get headhunted from abroad. a.k.a. your arse is gilt... Now then if you come on your own volition expecting an 1. then you may be in for a rude surprise due to the 2... and some professions you'd *think*... but facts of life are different.

So lets say an insurance broker vs. and insurance broker, classmates from school working in the same insurance corp in USA. One is dealing with maritime insurance and the other one has been insuring farmer's cows. The maritime guy is headhunted and carted over and pampered and has a mansion in Espoo and gets the kids school paid at the international school... the farm insurance broker lands with the pangs of HBS in horizontal sleet and the first insurance company he visits he can only say "moooooo" in Finnish. Yes, so what can one say to "can I find a job"...

Theres a lot of factors working in there, and peculiarily some of the strengths somewhere are weaknesses here and vice versa. I'd still say the thumb rule being the more prole the job; the more contact with the "natives" the more "fluent in Finnish" one must be. The more the niche job you have, the less you interact with the natives, the less "fluency" you're required - they'll bend over backwards to accommodate you. And "fluent" meaning here more the holistic approach with culture rather than having official level 3 done.

Of course, the "truths" are true as stereotypes usually are, so that lump of salt you need to lick occasionally. There is also not that many "critical mass" of immigrants here so as to have formed networks where a certain nationality has effectively taken over a profession... except maybe the oldest profession However it is always important to network. In Finland the problem is to find someone to "say you're OK"... a *lot* of jobs are gotten not via "official channels" but "somebody knows somebody". And Finland being the small country it is (somehow I am so glad I am not an Icelander) you basically will be only 2-3 people distance from other people in your profession sooner or later.

So yes, no, don't piss off too many people in the beginning. Before you know what the pond food chain is like

[MC Deli]

In Finland the problem is to find someone to "say you're OK"... a *lot* of jobs are gotten not via "official channels" but "somebody knows somebody". And Finland being the small country it is (somehow I am so glad I am not an Icelander) you basically will be only 2-3 people distance from other people in your profession sooner or later.

+1
That little piece of confidence an employer gets from hearing someone say you're OK is key.

And I would say that in Helsinki you are are only ever 1 person distance away from other people in your profession or actually anyone you run into. It might take a while to work out the connection but...