Negative and more NEGATIVE ...

sammy · Post by **sammy** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:33 pm

debonaire wrote:getting a job in Finland without language proficiency isn't a herculean task and depends on various parameters which define failure and success for every individual...

I think most people here would agree that this is possible - but for the sake of those who are not yet familiar with the country and the opportunities of its job market, they are simultaneously stressing that any prospective job applicant without any Finnish skills whatsoever should at least be prepared to face difficulties, depending on their expectations.

In other words - getting a job is something that does not usually happen automatically to anyone, not even if you're a native; on top of qualifications and skills it also takes initiative and a bit of perseverance. Additionally, not being skillful in Finnish and/or Swedish MAY be an extra hindrance to be tackled to some job-seekers. To some, it can be a small problem, to some, an insurmountable one. I honestly don't think there's anything 'negative' in stating that.

**Sponsor:**

Tiwaz · Post by **Tiwaz** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:33 pm

debonaire wrote:
rinso wrote:
shrecher wrote:I live here 7+ years. I know less the 100 words in both state languages.
That just shows his lack of respect for the country and the people where he is a guest.
Looks like you are way too fast on jumping to conclusions...Just because he is not yet able to communicate fluently in finnish despite living here for 7+ years doesn't indicate his disrespect for this country...
It would be better that you avoid personal comments about people who don't share your ideologies...simply because he happens to believe,pretty much like me, that getting a job in Finland without language proficiency isn't a herculean task and depends on various parameters which define failure and success for every individual...
Once again I request you to do away with your nagging attitude and try to provide some robust facts/references to back up your opinions

So what you call refusal to study and learn local dominant languages if not arrogance and disrespect?

He is effectively seeking to force everyone around him to accommodate to his desires, outsider and foreigner, (little harsh but that's the bottom line in such situation) by refusing to be able to communicate using anything but foreign languages.

He is effectively not integrating, not putting any effort to do so.

It would be interesting to know more of his circle of associates.

I wouldn't dream of moving to X country for 7+ years and come out unable to communicate with locals using their own language.

shrecher · Post by **shrecher** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:46 pm

Tiwaz wrote: So what you call refusal to study and learn local dominant languages if not arrogance and disrespect?

snowcelt wrote:Burn baby burn!

COBHC wrote:How the hell is that possible?

All above is pure flame and holy war, I'm not going to take part in it.

COBHC · Post by **COBHC** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:51 pm

would you prefer it if i said "how in god's name is that possible"? then at least he can be on your side.

shrecher · Post by **shrecher** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:58 pm

To clarify a bit. I came to Finland with work and business purposes. Finland has very nice climate for business activity. My relation with this country is very smooth, I believe my effort creates dozen amount of working places for other local peoples, and it drives country to progress. My investment in this country is significant.

I'm pretty sure it is much more useful for country then I'll fluently speak the local language.

I have very good friends in Finland from local Finns.

Seriously, I have no problems to work and live without Finnish. I welcome other nationalities to work here, don't be scared to risk!

Possibly my kidds will become Finns, this is they business, I'm not going to interfere with it.

My native language, my nationality and my religion will remain as I was born.

PS: According to my friends, M. Schumacher very badly speaks Italian language, even he was public person.

Tiwaz · Post by **Tiwaz** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:02 pm

shrecher wrote:
Tiwaz wrote: So what you call refusal to study and learn local dominant languages if not arrogance and disrespect?

snowcelt wrote:Burn baby burn!

COBHC wrote:How the hell is that possible?
All above is pure flame and holy war, I'm not going to take part in it.

Ja sinulla on luonnollisesti siihen täysi oikeus. Ei muuta tosin sitä seikkaa, että et varmaan ymmärrä tästä kommentista mitään.

Tietysti, saatat olettaa että tässä juuri haukun sinua minkä ehdin. Ikävää että ihmiskunnassa luottamus toisiin on niin heikoissa kantimissa.

Sen lisäksi on yleisesti ottane pidetty eräänlaisena kohteliaisuuden osoituksena, että opettelee puhumaan uuden asuinmaan kieltä jos muuttaa pysyvästi.

Omasta kielestä ei voi luopua, mutta voi opetella alueen valtakielen. Eikä odottaa että pesemättömät alkuasukasbarbaarit puhuvat maahanmuuttajan suosimaa kieltä.

aguinness · Post by **aguinness** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:10 pm

I wouldn't dream of moving to X country for 7+ years and come out unable to communicate with locals using their own language.

Off you go then, and don´t forget to let us know in a language of your own choice how you deal with all the differences of living in a foreign country, after lets say about 7+ years

Tiwaz · Post by **Tiwaz** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:18 pm

aguinness wrote:
I wouldn't dream of moving to X country for 7+ years and come out unable to communicate with locals using their own language.
Off you go then, and don´t forget to let us know in a language of your own choice how you deal with all the differences of living in a foreign country, after lets say about 7+ years

You mean refusing to learn local language is a way to deal with differences?

But I might move, though I have to think of moving my family along so it's not quite so easy.

debonaire · Post by **debonaire** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:23 pm

Tiwaz wrote:
aguinness wrote:
I wouldn't dream of moving to X country for 7+ years and come out unable to communicate with locals using their own language.
Off you go then, and don´t forget to let us know in a language of your own choice how you deal with all the differences of living in a foreign country, after lets say about 7+ years
You mean refusing to learn local language is a way to deal with differences?

But I might move, though I have to think of moving my family along so it's not quite so easy.

Ok...I fail to understand how you can categorise his failure to effectively communicate in finnish despite being here for 7+ years as refusal to learn the language...Its a rash comment
Firstly,learning finnish is pretty tough and it requires complete dedication...There could be various reasons why a person is not able to devote time to study finnish...No point dwelling on that...
Maybe you should put yourself in the shoes of a foreigner...How about moving to China and try learning the chinese language while trying to keep a balance between work and family life...
Secondly,its a person's preorgative whether to learn the language or not...If the person can get away without using the local language it shouldn't bother you at all...If he is doing well and good so be it...Its his choice whether he wants to integrate into the society with the langauge or without it...What you would like to do depends entirly on you...We are in no position to comment about others' preorgatives...
Personally,I would love to know the local language as then I can effectively integrate into the society...but again I would not like to comment what someone else would do in my position...

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:53 pm

Tiwaz wrote:esemättömät alkuasukasbarbaarit puhuvat maahanmuuttajan suosimaa kieltä.

Entä jos on saunapuhdas alkuasukasbarbaari?

Tiwaz · Post by **Tiwaz** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:41 am

debonaire wrote:
Tiwaz wrote:
aguinness wrote: Off you go then, and don´t forget to let us know in a language of your own choice how you deal with all the differences of living in a foreign country, after lets say about 7+ years
You mean refusing to learn local language is a way to deal with differences?

But I might move, though I have to think of moving my family along so it's not quite so easy.
Ok...I fail to understand how you can categorise his failure to effectively communicate in finnish despite being here for 7+ years as refusal to learn the language...Its a rash comment
Firstly,learning finnish is pretty tough and it requires complete dedication...There could be various reasons why a person is not able to devote time to study finnish...No point dwelling on that...
Maybe you should put yourself in the shoes of a foreigner...How about moving to China and try learning the chinese language while trying to keep a balance between work and family life...
Secondly,its a person's preorgative whether to learn the language or not...If the person can get away without using the local language it shouldn't bother you at all...If he is doing well and good so be it...Its his choice whether he wants to integrate into the society with the langauge or without it...What you would like to do depends entirly on you...We are in no position to comment about others' preorgatives...
Personally,I would love to know the local language as then I can effectively integrate into the society...but again I would not like to comment what someone else would do in my position...

Seven years and person has failed to find enough spare time to study language of nation where he lives?

It is not sign of being busy or anything. It is sign of arrogance and disrespect for nation you have moved into.

Nobody expects immigrants to get fluent immediately, but from people even in this forum you can get better than 100 word vocalbulary in very short time if you bother to put an effort to it.

Not bothering to study local language, instead seeking to force locals to accommodate to your needs by using some other language is arrogance, it is ignorance. It is disrespectful.

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:24 am

Nope - if you have enough money its not - you can pay for someone to speak for you. You know - if you are rich you can pay someone to clean for you, if you're really rich you can have someone even think for you. Poor bastards like you and me have to do our thinking and speaking and cleaning for ourselves

Curse of the working class, healed by a kossukoira, the working man's best friend. Alas, need to brew the coffee and go scrape the car...

raamv · Post by **raamv** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:58 pm

jos haluaa asua suomessa ja jos haluaan sulautua joukkoon,oppia ja puhua suomea!!

en tiedä miksi ihmiset asuu suomessa 7 v ja ei puhu suomea!!

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:48 pm

shrecher wrote: Finland has very nice climate for business activity.

Man,

first anyone to say that. And a foreigner on top! What are you selling, bright light lamps or vodka?

raamv · Post by **raamv** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:51 pm

Hank W. wrote:
shrecher wrote: Finland has very nice climate for business activity.
Man, first anyone to say that. And a foreigner on top! What are you selling, bright light lamps or vodka?

Mebbe he is a tonttu!!

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