Survival with a useless degree

[Tiwaz]

What good is teacher of english in Finland who can't explain to save his/her life what some word in english means to people who do not yet possess english skills on sufficient level?

A very good point.

Perhaps you should go tell it to those who organise the työvoimatoimisto courses that "teach" Finnish to new immigrants in Finland. These courses are mostly taught in Finnish - yes, the grammar and words are all explained to the students in FINNISH, and they definitely do not yet posses Finnish skills on a sufficient level.....


I find it quite ironic that most of your posts include scathing remarks about how immigrants don't manage to learn fluent Finnish. You quickly disapprove of the "teaching of English in English", whilst at the same time criticise immigrants who haven't managed to learn when attending courses that "teach Finnish in Finnish"

Immigrants are people who voluntarily chose to come to this country. They also represent variety of languages.

It would be way too expensive to provide each language group with their own course. And since language abilities of different groups are very different...

Well, let's just say trying to teach finnish in english is not going to work well.
I am not saying teaching finnish is arranged well in Finland. But in the end, it is duty of IMMIGRANT to get their head around this language. Not of state to feed it with spoon to try to help poow wittle immigwant to get by.

Finnish students are not immigrants. And they represent vastly homogenous group which understands finnish when used in teaching other languages.

[Karhunkoski]

I am not saying teaching finnish is arranged well in Finland.

Yes, it most definitely isn't well arranged.

But in the end, it is duty of IMMIGRANT to get their head around this language. Not of state to feed it with spoon to try to help poow wittle immigwant to get by.

Oh, I don't know, the state spoon-feeds the rest of the population


Ah, but now you make yourself clear You see it as a two-tier system, one set of rules for Finns, another set of rules for those dirty immigrants?

Finnish students are not immigrants.

May I finish by saying that IMO one of the main reasons that immigrants cause trouble in some countries is that they feel that the host country does not treat them equally; they see one set of rules for the natives, but feel they themselves are treat as second-class citizens.... Now I'm not greatly in favour of immigration, in a Finnish election I would consider a party that opposed immigration. But if there is to be immigration, all immigrants must be treated in exactly the same way as the native Finns, and if that means that as many as possible are taught Finnish in a familiar language (after all, a handful of languages will cover the majority of immigrants' needs), then this is how it should be. To promote a two-tier system will just cause major problems in the future.

[Pursuivant]

You quickly disapprove of the "teaching of English in English", whilst at the same time criticise immigrants who haven't managed to learn when attending courses that "teach Finnish in Finnish"

those työvoima courses are pants, however they are full-time sink or swim courses. you need to learn finnish in a year. schoolkids are taught what 2-4 hours a week and have 12 years? immersion is different alltogether. however the fact remains its the pillar saints at minedu who decide who teaches in grade school, no crying helps that.

[Pursuivant]

[ all immigrants must be treated in exactly the same way as the native Finns,

but they are, finns are taught in finnish and foreigners are taught in finnish. whats the problem, want special treatment? the immigrant has the handicap, so if he wants to be treated equal then no special ramps, elevators nor parking sport - grow legs cripple!

[easily-lost]

Well, let's just say trying to teach finnish in english is not going to work well.

Based on my own experience, I say teaching Finnish in English is much better than "suomi suomeksi", at least for the elementary levels. You can teach a kid a foreign language in that language easily, but adults...I really doubt so. One of obvious differences is that grown-ups are capable of logical thinking, while children can not, whose memorizing abilities are then required to be far more advanced than the former, thus it's better approach for adults to study the grammar, which needs logical thinking, in a language they can understand at the beginning, aka. English! (Isn't English already the "universal language" nowadays? )

[Pursuivant]

but that would then put geordies and other people who can't english in a precarious position

[easily-lost]

What's the difference to them either learning in Finnish or in English if they know nothing about both languages? Besides, they can learn another useful foreign language in a Finnish class while the majority are happy for knowing what the teacher is explaining during/after class...

I believe those whoever (immigrants) had graduated from high school or even middle school in their home countries would have studied English for some years? (If you talk about refugees or people have no previous studies at all, that's another story. And do they bother to sit in a language course at all?!) So, what's the problem learning Finnish in English for entry levels?

[Pursuivant]

so then choose if you want segregation or not?

[easily-lost]

Since when people in Finland (or at least on this forum) think we are all equal?! But what is this "segregation" about? I just mean English is so far the most efficient language due to its coverage of the world (the variety of nations other than population in this case) to introduce a general idea of what Finnish is like, logically and grammatically. A teacher's main target is the majority of the students, instead of only a few in class, unless that's a one-to-one tutor!

Ulvesang:
I never said it's impossible to learn Finnish in Finnish, if you read carefully, I was only commenting that it's way better to start off in English based on my experience. I had a terrible time for Suomi 1, because the teacher is literally incapable of explaining anything in English, I got so confused until Suomi 2 started with another teacher. Whether a teacher is good or not, I believe only their students have the right to judge. Since it's a sort of "tradition" of running away from the original topic here on FF, One-Way-Decent-Teacher, if I may, how does your Finnish-in-Finnish studies go?

[Desundial]

Not the person you asked, but having taken finnish for ferners both ways: in english and in finnish (different schools, different styles) I'll say I learned a heck of a lot more when the teacher spoke in finnish - slowely, but with dedication.

First, it made everyone in the class on the same level (equally confused to start ) - regardless of their native language, and english certainly wasn't the majority case.

Second, it forced the brain to work harder and really work. IMHO cutting out the "middleman" - the english explanations of finnish - forces the brain away from constant translating and to recognizing and associating certain sounds (i.e. words, phrases) with certain meanings.

Disclaimer - to be effective the teacher needs to be willing to speak slowly, be patient and repetative - and to pantomime, gesture= and draw, and quite creatively so. In my case the finnish in finnish teachers were all this and quite superior to the finnish in english teacher (3 courses with former, 4 with the later). But I'm biased, this is the type of immersion style in which my two previously studied foreign languages were taught.

[Pursuivant]

Since when people in Finland (or at least on this forum) think we are all equal?!

well some evidently think so - but as always, some swine think they are more equal than other animals.
a foreigner who cannot speak finnish has a handicap. no legs. so either they grow legs or fess up they need the short bus. and that fessing up needs to be done in the persons own head.

[Rob A.]

...and that fessing up needs to be done in the persons own head.

....and, finally, here it is...the real issue...attitude...probably the only thing that really matters...the attitude you are bringing to the language learning process...

And why does Finland have to "re-invent the wheel", so to speak??...Just ask me... I've seen the process of foreigners learning English in Canada all my life... Motivation and attitude.... If you really think it is up to the government or the locals to help you...well....what can I say???...

[onkko]

...and that fessing up needs to be done in the persons own head.

....and, finally, here it is...the real issue...attitude...probably the only thing that really matters...the attitude you are bringing to the language learning process...

And why does Finland have to "re-invent the wheel", so to speak??...Just ask me... I've seen the process of foreigners learning English in Canada all my life... Motivation and attitude.... If you really think it is up to the government or the locals to help you...well....what can I say???...

Too bad thats what flowerhats think now "oh poor foreigner, we need more who can speak swahili", foreigner is "richness" and we cant "demand" anything from them. I think its adapt or depart, im not supported by main politicians tho or politicians cant say anything because theyll be racists if they demand that foreigners should learn finnish.
Yes im frustrated..

[Pursuivant]

last time was checking this attitude was "they can all move to canada"

[Tiwaz]

I am not saying teaching finnish is arranged well in Finland.

Yes, it most definitely isn't well arranged.

Which, in the end, is problem of immigrant. As said, it is question of motivation above all else. You are practically immersed in finnish in Finland.

No amount of money wasted on language courses can change your attitude.

But in the end, it is duty of IMMIGRANT to get their head around this language. Not of state to feed it with spoon to try to help poow wittle immigwant to get by.

Oh, I don't know, the state spoon-feeds the rest of the population

Depends. Some sorry cases are spoon-fed, rest told to sod off and sort it out.

Ah, but now you make yourself clear You see it as a two-tier system, one set of rules for Finns, another set of rules for those dirty immigrants?

I am all for equality for integrated (and language capable) immigrants. And I ignore both immigrants and natives with equal disinterest.

However, this IS Finland. It is independent nation with independent culture and language. Learn it of sod off. That goes for ALL people living in it.

Finnish students are not immigrants.

May I finish by saying that IMO one of the main reasons that immigrants cause trouble in some countries is that they feel that the host country does not treat them equally; they see one set of rules for the natives, but feel they themselves are treat as second-class citizens.... Now I'm not greatly in favour of immigration, in a Finnish election I would consider a party that opposed immigration. But if there is to be immigration, all immigrants must be treated in exactly the same way as the native Finns, and if that means that as many as possible are taught Finnish in a familiar language (after all, a handful of languages will cover the majority of immigrants' needs), then this is how it should be. To promote a two-tier system will just cause major problems in the future.

So you would propose instead three tier system. There are finns who deal with life fluently with finnish.
Second tier, people who are native english speakers (or whatever languages are supported) and who have stuff taught in their own language.
And third tier for those immigrants who are not blessed with language supported by finnish educational system.

Sorry, that is even more inequal than current system.

Not to mention that there are severe limitations on how much different education can be arranged. It costs money, money is in short supply. And with motivational problems of great many immigrants, there is not really good excuse to waste more on it.

Second, it is not all that easy to find teachers who have sufficient fluency in both foreign language and finnish to teach them.


Bottom line, when immigrant behaves like native finn, they are treated like native finns. (with slight variation)

If you make it clear you are not finn, don't expect to be treated as one.