Here we go again..another school shooting

[sammy]

Then again, have parents ever had enough time for their kids? What about when they had to work on farms? Did they all work together?

I believe many children actually did "work" - not necessarily with a hammer or a spade, but in some ways that profited the day-to-day survival of the family. I don't think "free time" as we know it really existed back then.

Time with kids... no-one has more than 24 hours per day anyway. The crux of the problem might be that many parents are desperately trying to entertain their kids, giving them "quality time" (I detest the Finnish term laatuaika...) and trying to buy their affection with the latest model of NinjaTendo game cube or whatever - when all they "need" is normal day-to-day life together with their parents, in a safe family environment, and a sense that their parents are genuinely interested in how they are doing & feeling.

But tell this to your kids when all the others in the neigbourhood already have the said NinjaTendo box... mind you did anybody spot the ads just recently... can't remember which company it was (ha! a bad advertisement!) but there were pictures of sultry teenagers, caption being "ota nyt tohon kontaktia" (free translation "you mean, try to be in touch with him/her?") - and the "solution" was to buy some new internet gadget or a mobile phone...

As ye reap...

[Pursuivant]

The Finnish police only have soft-skinned vehicles, none are armoured. So whenever there is a situation involving firearms or explosives, army vehicles are deployed.

And also the police has no manpower to cordone off areas, so if they need to have 100 people standing in a circle they ask for the military for some assistance as the conscripts are cheap as soap. Same thing if people go missing and they do a search they can deploy a few hundred people into the woods.

[Kupcake]

Then again, have parents ever had enough time for their kids? What about when they had to work on farms? Did they all work together?

I believe many children actually did "work" - not necessarily with a hammer or a spade, but in some ways that profited the day-to-day survival of the family. I don't think "free time" as we know it really existed back then.

Time with kids... no-one has more than 24 hours per day anyway. The crux of the problem might be that many parents are desperately trying to entertain their kids, giving them "quality time" (I detest the Finnish term laatuaika...) and trying to buy their affection with the latest model of NinjaTendo game cube or whatever - when all they "need" is normal day-to-day life together with their parents, in a safe family environment, and a sense that their parents are genuinely interested in how they are doing & feeling.

But tell this to your kids when all the others in the neigbourhood already have the said NinjaTendo box... mind you did anybody spot the ads just recently... can't remember which company it was (ha! a bad advertisement!) but there were pictures of sultry teenagers, caption being "ota nyt tohon kontaktia" (free translation "you mean, try to be in touch with him/her?") - and the "solution" was to buy some new internet gadget or a mobile phone...

As ye reap...

Based on what i've experienced, no matter what kids say they want, they also strongly desire connection with their family and a sense of support within the family structure. I found it incredibly difficult when i was working full time to give our kids that kind of connectedness, but i remember working very hard at it on a daily basis. No matter how late i had to stay up to get the housework done as well, each of the boys had time with me to talk things over every day. Sometimes the things we talked about seemed really minute, but now they're older i'm reaping the rewards of all my hard work with them - they are very communicative, especially for teens. I'm not saying this guarantees a mentally healthy person, but i think this type of work in the family goes a long way on the road to mental health.

[Rosamunda]

Yes, it would certainly make a difference (IMO) if kids stayed in school until at least 3.30pm every day. Some days kids finish school at 1pm or 2pm and then of course many of them are home alone until their parents turn up which maybe as much as 4 or 5 hours later. AFAIK there is no law in Finland that prevents children of any age being left unsupervised in the home day or night.

And schools no longer offer as many clubs as they used to. After school clubs are a great way to get kids to socialise outside of the classroom.

[Upphew]

Did you happen to watch A-Talk last night?
I think if you had, you might have seen several reasons why Ms. Holmlund's chair might be creaking under her.
Not least the failure to follow through on promises made last November. Or the rather lame references to EU directives - given that Finland already HAD an alarming case, one might have thought that the country's leaders would actually take the LEAD and not wait to see what other less-troubled member-states planned to do.

And since when has the public in any country not used the democratic process - including municipal or European elections - to comment on the popularity or otherwise of the government? A good many of the sitting MPs are also members of local councils...

I rarely watch tv, so no, I did not see A-Talk. I'll try to remember to watch it at yle-areena. As for promises made by career politician... I take boatload of salt with them.
You are right that people make their mind about who they vote based on many things, but IMHO they put too much weight to national, even global, things when it is community council that is elected. Maybe you can guess my opinion about MP being also member of local council when they don't have enough time to attend plenary session...

[raskarhu]

Police Let Shooter Keep Gun
Published 23.09.2008, 17.35

Police questioned suspected Kauhajoki gunman Matti Saari on Monday because of violent videos he had posted on the website YouTube, showing himself shooting a gun at a firing range. However no further action was taken.


According to National Police Commissioner Mikko Paatero, the man did not apparently directly threaten anyone so there were no grounds for further steps.

Police first received information about the videos on Friday, but could not reach the man until Monday. He was then questioned about the videos. Police apparently also searched his home.

Saari had received a temporary permit in August for a .22 calibre handgun, his first gun.

However the chief inspector in charge of case decided that there were no grounds for suspending the gun license or confiscating the weapon. Paatero and Interior Minister Anne Holmlund have promised a thorough investigation of the case.

"One would imagine that the gun or the license were not taken away because he did not threaten anyone in the internet video," Paatero told YLE.

YLE

I wonder if the guy had been a brown faced muslim, would they have not undertaken any action?

Stupid cops! It's their fault, without any doubt, that this has happened. Sadly enough.

[Pursuivant]

its the problem with the flower hatted aunties and their privacy laws...

and I think the system is idiotic - you need to go on a course and do tests to get a drivers licence... for a gun you can be a klutz the army sent home... *thats* the problem originally right there.

[sammy]

Stupid cops! It's their fault, without any doubt, that this has happened. Sadly enough.

No offence, but you're wrong there. It's not their fault it happened, although they are partly to blame for the fact that it was not prevented. Those are two completely different things when you think about it for a while.

[otyikondo]

Stupid cops! It's their fault, without any doubt, that this has happened. Sadly enough.

No offence, but you're wrong there. It's not their fault it happened, although they are partly to blame for the fact that it was not prevented. Those are two completely different things when you think about it for a while.

Yes. Quite wrong. If you are a gardener, but you are not provided with a spade by your employer, does that make you a bad gardener?

The police have pointed out quite cogently that they have no resources to perform the necessary background checks, and the government - who determine the rules on these things, NOT the police - has maintained a policy under which the default setting is "get a firearms licence", and not getting one requires proof of lunacy, rather than "don't get a firearms licence until you can prove you are fit to have a gun".

This will soon change, one hopes, but it will not be the police who pass the changes, even if they are among those calling for them.

I suspect there might be a lot of posters on this board who would scream blue murder if the police WERE given the necessary tools to have averted this incident.

[raskarhu]

Stupid cops! It's their fault, without any doubt, that this has happened. Sadly enough.

No offence, but you're wrong there. It's not their fault it happened, although they are partly to blame for the fact that it was not prevented. Those are two completely different things when you think about it for a while.

Logically speaking you're right. O.k. But there's also the question about responsability you have to ask.

Not to mention all the efforts put into the monitoring of these wacko's. Why monitor those freaks if you do not even bother to keep a close eye on him for some more days. Why didn't the cops shadow the guy, had it only been for some days... But no, they let him go after asking him some questions and looking him in the eye?

The police could have prevented this very easily. By shooting him in the f*****g head upon him getting his revolver out. That's all. The cops should have been there when he entered the school that day, should have been on his tail since the moment the cops talked to him. But these officers apparently didn't think he was a treat to society...

O.k. then, so be it ...

Stupid cops, can't find another way to describe these losers.

[Upphew]

O.k. then, so be it ...

Stupid cops, can't find another way to describe these losers.

Yeah, how many deaths they would prevent if they were stalking every home party and bar?

[raskarhu]

O.k. then, so be it ...

Stupid cops, can't find another way to describe these losers.

Yeah, how many deaths they would prevent if they were stalking every home party and bar?

Who said they have to control and spy on every citizen? Do not put words in my mouth please. I'm talking about a person that posted a movie on Youtube in which he is posing with a gun, and saying things that could remind the cops of an earlier event in November 2007 in which people where slaughtered. I am not talking about 'every home and party and bar', I'm talking about the terrorist that killed 9 people just last tuesday.

And you bet that if he had been a brown-faced muslim who had posted a similar thing on youtube, that he would have been arrested on the spot or at least they would have had his phone tapped and they would have shadowed him.

Kind regards
Raskarhu

[onkko]

O.k. then, so be it ...

Stupid cops, can't find another way to describe these losers.

Yeah, how many deaths they would prevent if they were stalking every home party and bar?

Who said they have to control and spy on every citizen? Do not put words in my mouth please. I'm talking about a person that posted a movie on Youtube in which he is posing with a gun, and saying things that could remind the cops of an earlier event in November 2007 in which people where slaughtered. I am not talking about 'every home and party and bar', I'm talking about the terrorist that killed 9 people just last tuesday.

And you bet that if he had been a brown-faced muslim who had posted a similar thing on youtube, that he would have been arrested on the spot or at least they would have had his phone tapped and they would have shadowed him.

Kind regards
Raskarhu

Read news again... Those videos were uploaded just before shooting.

[sammy]

Stupid cops! It's their fault, without any doubt, that this has happened. Sadly enough.

No offence, but you're wrong there. It's not their fault it happened, although they are partly to blame for the fact that it was not prevented. Those are two completely different things when you think about it for a while.

Logically speaking you're right. O.k. But there's also the question about responsability you have to ask.

I see your point, but still stick to my original claim. Adding new terms like responsibility will not change the basic situation - the police are not responsible for what happened, but it is reasonable to say they are partly responsible for not being able to prevent it. Stating otherwise is closing one's eyes from the real problem.

(Btw which particular videos did the cops have the chance to see before the interview?)

We can "if, but and when" to the end of the world, it won't change the sad fait accompli; the point I was trying to make is this - the real problem is not whether cops could charge in (figuratively speaking) 'at the last minute' or not, the real problem that should be addressed lies much deeper than this, and probably entails a loooong period of time -possibly several years- during which no-one reacted in any way. In other words, tragic as the shooting incident was, we've got to face the fact that the years of (neglect, solitude, bullying, whatever, I have no idea, maybe we'll never know for sure) that have led to it are equally tragic, if not even more so. Instead of putting up metal detectors and resourcing police surveillance to all even slightly suspicious characters we, IMO, should concentrate on the issues in society that allow individuals to go through such years without anyone doing anything. If we merely concentrate on dealing with "prevention of loonies" then we are, in effect doing what could -in a way- be expressed through the Finnish saying "perse edellä puuhun"

[Upphew]

Who said they have to control and spy on every citizen? Do not put words in my mouth please. I'm talking about a person that posted a movie on Youtube in which he is posing with a gun, and saying things that could remind the cops of an earlier event in November 2007 in which people where slaughtered. I am not talking about 'every home and party and bar', I'm talking about the terrorist that killed 9 people just last tuesday.

And you bet that if he had been a brown-faced muslim who had posted a similar thing on youtube, that he would have been arrested on the spot or at least they would have had his phone tapped and they would have shadowed him.

Kind regards
Raskarhu

You mean videos where he was shooting at the range? 'Cause those 4 videos at youtube were all from the range:


If some "brown-faced" would have posted same kinds of videos, I think there wouldn't have been any arrest either. Gun with a permit, in a range --> no reason for arrest. And phone tapping is not so easy as you think...