Underage drinking/public drunkeness in Finland...

[onkko]

Thanks for the parenting advice Tiwaz, but it really doesn't work with a child who has an intellectual disability. Even my 12 year old without any disability, I'm not going to just let him do whatever and have him wear the result. The proof of how well this whole "give them a chance to learn their own responsibility" philosophy works is fairly clearly displayed when there are 30 drunk teenagers out on the streets waiting for their parents to come and pick them up.

I personally think that's a stupid way for a child to "learn". My kids have far safer ways to learn responsibility, like doing homework or face the punishment, do their chores or not get paid, water the garden or it dies. I don't need them out unsupervised and risking harm as a teaching method.

But each to his own, other parents can do as they please... to parents from outside Finland looking in, it often looks ridiculous to allow a kid such free reign. It just seems to be assumed that the kid will never get hurt and the world out there is safe. My kids learn to handle alcohol at home, not with a bunch of friends passed out in a gutter.

Maybe i red tiwaz text with finnish classes but i didnt see what you see.

Seems like more how i was raised, no mom or dad yapping and telling what to do but clear boundaries with responsibilies. I had to do my chores without them to tell me that "now you do this". Kind of freedom with borders and responsibilities.
Like we had responsibility to get "sauna wood" and "heating wood" in boiler room, empty trash bin, keep track what schoolbooks we need in school tomorrow and when we have to be in school, wash dishes etc.. Parents of course knew about what schoolbooks we needed and out timetable but that was our responsibility.
After i came home from school and did my chores i could just say "ill go to neighbour" and i knew i had to be home about 20, thats if nothing was planned. that was my responsibity and they didnt tell that on all times.

To know responsibilities and limits, other is "free time". I remember case when few friends came to get me for driving aroud with mopeds but it was my time to get wood in boiler room, it was almost empty. 4 teens fills boiler room in record time and "just because" we bit overfilled it
Well i fed cows few times to get my friend to come with me faster.

Kinda babble but i hope you understood

[Tiwaz]

Thanks for the parenting advice Tiwaz, but it really doesn't work with a child who has an intellectual disability. Even my 12 year old without any disability, I'm not going to just let him do whatever and have him wear the result. The proof of how well this whole "give them a chance to learn their own responsibility" philosophy works is fairly clearly displayed when there are 30 drunk teenagers out on the streets waiting for their parents to come and pick them up.

I personally think that's a stupid way for a child to "learn". My kids have far safer ways to learn responsibility, like doing homework or face the punishment, do their chores or not get paid, water the garden or it dies. I don't need them out unsupervised and risking harm as a teaching method.

But each to his own, other parents can do as they please... to parents from outside Finland looking in, it often looks ridiculous to allow a kid such free reign. It just seems to be assumed that the kid will never get hurt and the world out there is safe. My kids learn to handle alcohol at home, not with a bunch of friends passed out in a gutter.

Of course people with disability have to be treated JUST like everyone else. Very intellect from you. Are you always this politically correct? If you have handicap, different rules apply.

And your 12 year old. If your kids do their homework because else they are punished. What happens when you are no longer in position to punish them? What about when you no longer can excert your authority over them?

They might stick to their preprogrammed way to act. But I have in my youth seen MUCH examples where kids who were brought up in tight reign end up letting it all go when they finally get away from prison built by their parents.

Also, you should read my post with actual thought. What you describe is pretty much what I told. Do not water your own garden = your garden dies. Do not do your homework = get in trouble with teacher.
They make decisions and have to face the consequences of those decisions.

You should notice that I never spoke of being unsupervised. I only said that kids have to learn that what they decide has impact in their own life even if nobody goes out of his/her way to punish them.
One of those is that homework thing. You punish them, I let the consequences of their deeds to kick them in the ass and then ask if they could have done something to prevent it.

Finally, you should read one part above all else. I encouraged use of COMMON SENSE. It is called common because it used to be common. Today parents try to micromanage, like you, their kids. "Do this, do that, then those" Or alternatively they pamper them to ruin. Kids never having to do anything or make any decisions. Both ways produce adults who are ill equipped to deal with life where you have to take care of yourself. Because they never learned that when in safety net of home, where parents can catch up and stop the fall. They go from youth which was either pampered or micromanaged to adulthood where nobody is holding your hand or trying to dictate your every move.


I did not have my parents watching over my homework. It did not take large leap in logic even as kid to understand that not doing homework means bad grades which is bad. So I did my homework by myself. Or if I did not I bore the consequences of my stupidity and learned from it.

[Mattlill2000]

Tummansininen, I'm curious of the social envoirment your family is living in because of points of that you have mentioned have made me think about it. For example -unsupervised risking harm, spare time leading to involvment with street gangs and kids running around without any shoes and shirts. If I have understood you correctly your social enviorment seems to have more violence and poverty than what we are used to in Finland and then the role of parent is different to adopt to different social conditions. What kind of extra programmes are available for your kids after school? I'm speaking of sports, arts etc. If you have lived in Finland before, how does it compare? If my hunches are correct, I think that if I lived in your neighbourhood I would be a very strict parent.

[Mattlill2000]

I think the point many are missing here is that kids need to have boundaries

I agree 100%

don't weigh up the relative pros and cons of a situation simply because they don't have the experience of an adult

I give my kids more credit than that. In fact I often ask them for advice and assistance in things I'm unsure of. Even at an early age. Right now my 15 year old daughter is coaching a gymnastic squad of 3-5 year olds. Babysits infants and pets. Stuff many adults couldn't do. My son while no Einstein, has always had the uncanny common sense to assess and judge a situation that never ceases to amaze me.

So... I've been labelled a micro-manager/quote]
I don't think so. Everybody has their own point of view. I personally label you as a good parent. Things would be pretty boring if we all agreed on everything.
There is that golden road between being too strict and too loose and to me if you veer from it, its better to go toward the stricter side.

[Pursuivant]

I personally wouldn't go wander the streets of Helsinki alone, aimlessly, in the dark, and I'm an adult.

but thats the whole fun of living in a city

[Tiwaz]

I don't punish him. The school do. It's called discipline, he loses his free time if homework isn't done because he then has to do the work while others go play. In the big grown up world if you don't do your tasks, you have to stay back in your (free) time to catch up. I call that punishment

No, you go and ask them and make sure they do their homework. Instead of letting them understand that THEY have to take care of their homework.

It's no prison to me if a parent knows where their kid is... again like I said others can do as they like.

Do you know where your kid is? Below 12 years and so on they most likely will tell you where they are, where they go. But if you do not start cutting back on demanding to know, they will get annoyed with it by teen years. You HAVE to cut slack and let them take more responsibility of themselves.

]But, this thread is about kids going out and doing stuff like getting drunk. That is about unsupervised... isn't it?

And my point has been, that much of this problem is because kids lack concept of consequences. Because either they have been pampered and prevented from suffering from their deeds. Or because they are not given any responsibility over their own fate and thus have not had yet opportunity to get into trouble.

How the hell is having a boundary micro-management? Are you for real? And what are you smoking? Do I sit there with a stopwatch to see if they arrive from school at precisely 3.27pm??? Do I weigh their dinner to ensure they eat exactly 1,000 calories? Do I phone their friends and check if their home is allergy-free, has a leather sofa, and to make sure their study desk has a working light globe over the top, before I let them go there to play???

It depends on boundary. Is 1 cubic meter cage same as 1000 cubic meter cage? Of course not.

And like I've already said, if they don't do their homework I don't punish them... the school does. It might be interesting to note that in Australia, at least until 12 years old, parents are expected to ensure their children do their homework, by the way, and always have been for the last 50 years. So that must mean that all Australians are

adults who are ill equipped to deal with life

.

Perhaps they are. And what is expected is not what takes place.
Truth is, if kids are not made to take responsibility of their own decisions and actions when young, they will not have grasp of it when they are older.

That is why it is necessary to give always more responsibility to children over themselves. So that when they leave home, they already are prepared to take responsibility for themselves fully.
Because if mommy and daddy spend whole childhood leading their kids. Kids will not learn to take responsibility.

[biscayne]

The terrible teenage drinking problem in Finland? I've been laughing my arse off reading the posts. Anyone been to Ireland recently? Anyone brave enough to go out in Dublin on a Friday night? Finns are positively puritanical in comparison.

[DMC]

The terrible teenage drinking problem in Finland? I've been laughing my arse off reading the posts. Anyone been to Ireland recently? Anyone brave enough to go out in Dublin on a Friday night? Finns are positively puritanical in comparison.

I haven't been there for years, but I can believe it. I also read something similar on a Russian forum a few days ago. Perhaps the problem is universal and everyone thinks it is worse in their own back yards.

[Pursuivant]

Well its always like that innit? Mileage varies...

Heres a Finnish version of "Cops"...
http://www.jimtv.fi/nettitv/default.asp ... liftType=0

Compare then say with
http://sky1.sky.com/road-wars-favourite ... s-vote-now
... oi, thats Vicky Pollard at 1:45

[Kupcake]

This is very true. I'm quite aware of Helsinki being a much safer environment than where I am living just now.

Tummansininen - where the heck in Australia you living??? It sounds positively awful!!! And how old are your kids??

We moved here over 3 years ago and have had more trouble with our teens than we had in Australia. We were so shocked to find out what our kids and their friends were getting up to when they were telling us that they were doing something else!!!! When our kids were 14 and under, it was all very simple - you have a lot of say in where they are and what they do. But believe me, things change when they become teens.

I can happily say that we are approaching the other side of those teen years now. It was (and still is sometimes) tough. Before you judge those teens' parents too harshly, just remember that one day (in spite of how much of a wonderful parent you may be now) those kids that seem so out of control may be your own!

[DMC]

This story http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090129/tu ... 23e80.html

quotes these figures for the UK:

An estimated 630,000 children aged 11 to 17 in the UK drink more than once a week and around one in five 15-year-olds say they first got drunk when they were 13 or younger, according to Government figures. By the age of 13, just over 20% say they have been drunk at least twice, increasing to almost half of all 15-year-olds. Figures also show that the amount children drink has risen since 1990.

Does anyone know comparable statistics for Finland?
What is the minimum age at which children in Finland can legally drink in the home? I vaguely remember it being 5 years in the UK, but not sure where I got that from.

[Jukka Aho]

What is the minimum age at which children in Finland can legally drink in the home?

There’s no such thing, legally speaking. It’s the same age as when they’re allowed to buy alcoholic beverages for themselves. I.e. 18 years for mild alcoholic drinks (1.2 – 22 % ABV), 20 years for the harder stuff. (Alkoholilaki 8.12.1994/1143 3 §, 16 §, 24 §, 31 §.)
 

[Pursuivant]

there was a survey just recently in one of the ilta-rags.... lets see... OK a bit older one

Nuorten terveystapatutkimuksen 2007 mukaan 12-vuotiaista pojista 92 ja tytöistä 93 prosenttia ei ole käyttänyt alkoholia edes pieniä määriä. 14-vuotiailla vastaavat luvut ovat 65 (pojat) ja 55 prosenttia (tytöt). 16-vuotiaista pojista alkoholia vähintään pari kertaa kuukaudessa käyttää 30 prosenttia ja samanikäisistä tytöistä 34 prosenttia. 18-vuotiaista pojista 65 prosenttia ja tytöistä 64 prosenttia juo alkoholia vähintään pari kertaa kuukaudessa. Tosihumalaan itsensä kertoo juovansa 1-2 kertaa kuukaudessa tai tiheämmin 4 prosenttia 14-vuotiaista, 18 prosenttia 16-vuotiaista ja 41 prosenttia 18-vuotiaista pojista. 14-vuotiaista tytöistä saman kertoo tekevänsä 6 prosenttia, 16-vuotiaista 18 prosenttia ja 18-vuotiaista 30 prosenttia.

Legal age...

Alcoholic beverages shall not be possessed or transported by a person who is under
twenty years of age. A person who is eighteen or over may, however, possess and
transport mild alcoholic beverages.

Persons younger than eighteen years of age may not possess or transport beverages
containing at least 1.2 and at the most 2.8 percentage by volume ethyl alcohol.

and

Chapter 43 - Infringement of proper behaviour
Section 7
A person who entices a person under eighteen years of age into drinking an
alcoholic beverage so that the latter gets drunk shall be sentenced to a fine.

[DMC]

That (legal age) is a big surprise to me.

[sinikettu]

Look like England's chief medical officer has been reading this thread.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7856595.stm